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    Posted: Mar 03 2025 at 12:53pm
As an alternative to seeding discussions, here are some thoughts on the wrestling that took place over the weekend at Souderton:

1. Souderton did a great job as host.  Great facility, well organized, tournament ran smoothly.  

2. The big guns performed as expected - Morrison, Mutarelli, Sement, Gaj, Bechtold all dominated as expected.

3. Super Sophs:  This sophomore class has some real talent:  Powell, Morrison, Waltenbaugh, Murray,  Ramos, Knox, Smith, Corp, Hostetter, Latorre all looked great.  There were others, but these wrestlers stood out.

4. As always, the 5-6 matches provide the most drama.  Cole Haines's last second win really stood out.  At 189, Spielman and Griffin were both clearly not 100%, but still went out and put in on the line.  

5.   107 was predictably unpredictable.  Williams had a great tournament, but if they wrestled this bracket 5 times, you could have 5 different winners.

6. 107, 152, 160 and 189 were particularly deep weights.  Some really good wrestlers did not make it through. 

7. Apart from the group at 107, the most impressive freshman was Daniel Dennis in a tough 133 bracket. 

8. Others who impressed:  Walker Murray bonused through the tournament; Brayden Sigle scrambled to two big wins in semis and final; Cameron Montgomery 2nd year of wrestling finishes 4th at 285.
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All great takeaways. I'll add a few thoughts & tack on to some others...

2. Carr also looked incredibly dominant. 4-0 in the final doesn't show the full picture of how clear his level up from last year was.

4. Delaney is another that looked to be competing very banged up... sucks to go out that way if true. Spielman looked incredibly hurt all weekend. I hope we still see him at States. We have 5 guys at 189 who could legit medal in any order on any given day.

5. Borzio, Smith, Hoffman all could be at States... pretty crazy to see that kind of depth in the area (especially considering some of our best talent down low is at Malvern Prep).

9. The officiating looked very strong -- a lot of talk about the older/younger crew of refs but didn't notice many bad calls this weekend (or at least, coaches not taking exception with many calls).

10. Boyertown did not have their best weekend... ironic, since they finished 4th, but a few tough semi losses and not getting Stankina through has to hurt.

11. How many medals do we get? O/U at 21.5. Without looking at brackets, I could see us getting:

107 (1)
114 (1)
121 (2)
127 (0)
133 (2)
139 (2)
145 (2)
152 (4)
160 (4)
172 (1)
189 (2)
215 (0)
285 (1)
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Originally posted by PAWrestlingCommenter PAWrestlingCommenter wrote:

All great takeaways. I'll add a few thoughts & tack on to some others...

2. Carr also looked incredibly dominant. 4-0 in the final doesn't show the full picture of how clear his level up from last year was.

4. Delaney is another that looked to be competing very banged up... sucks to go out that way if true. Spielman looked incredibly hurt all weekend. I hope we still see him at States. We have 5 guys at 189 who could legit medal in any order on any given day.

5. Borzio, Smith, Hoffman all could be at States... pretty crazy to see that kind of depth in the area (especially considering some of our best talent down low is at Malvern Prep).

9. The officiating looked very strong -- a lot of talk about the older/younger crew of refs but didn't notice many bad calls this weekend (or at least, coaches not taking exception with many calls).

10. Boyertown did not have their best weekend... ironic, since they finished 4th, but a few tough semi losses and not getting Stankina through has to hurt.

11. How many medals do we get? O/U at 21.5. Without looking at brackets, I could see us getting:

107 (1)
114 (1)
121 (2)
127 (0)
133 (2)
139 (2)
145 (2)
152 (4)
160 (4)
172 (1)
189 (2)
215 (0)
285 (1)

107 (2)
114 (3)
121 (2)
127 (1)
133 (2)
139 (3)
145 (1)
152 (2)
160 (2)
172 (2)
189 (1)
215 (1)
285 (1)

I'll take the over
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Originally posted by PAWrestlingCommenter PAWrestlingCommenter wrote:

All great takeaways. I'll add a few thoughts & tack on to some others...

2. Carr also looked incredibly dominant. 4-0 in the final doesn't show the full picture of how clear his level up from last year was.

4. Delaney is another that looked to be competing very banged up... sucks to go out that way if true. Spielman looked incredibly hurt all weekend. I hope we still see him at States. We have 5 guys at 189 who could legit medal in any order on any given day.

5. Borzio, Smith, Hoffman all could be at States... pretty crazy to see that kind of depth in the area (especially considering some of our best talent down low is at Malvern Prep).

9. The officiating looked very strong -- a lot of talk about the older/younger crew of refs but didn't notice many bad calls this weekend (or at least, coaches not taking exception with many calls).

10. Boyertown did not have their best weekend... ironic, since they finished 4th, but a few tough semi losses and not getting Stankina through has to hurt.

11. How many medals do we get? O/U at 21.5. Without looking at brackets, I could see us getting:

107 (1)
114 (1)
121 (2)
127 (0)
133 (2)
139 (2)
145 (2)
152 (4)
160 (4)
172 (1)
189 (2)
215 (0)
285 (1)

I'm with you on the over!  I also think we end up with somewhere between 3 and 5 champs.  Additionally, to your points above...the Sun Valley kids are tough.  That program has come a long way since the 80s/90s when it was kind of the door mat of District 1.  107 is a really good weight class for SEPA.  The officiating was the best I have seen in 30 years.  I said that to my wife.  It was nice to see some new faces mixed in.  I kind of expected that from Boyertown.  They were a really good dual meet team but didn't have any big guns this year.  I don't think they wrestled poorly, they just had more dual meet type kids then they did kids that can compete for Regional medals.
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Interesting after all the discussion of the seeding process and its carryover to Regionals 4 th placers, 1 5th placer and 0 6th placers placed in the top 6.  All of them qualified for States Kane 2 107 as the 4th place finisher and the rest as a 5th place finisher.
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Some notes on seeding:

107 - 8th seed finished 4th (wrestled 1 seed 2nd match and lost, then wrestled and placed above 2nd seeded wrestler that he beat head to head earlier in the year that was seeded above him at districts)

133 - 9th seed finished 5th (wrestled 1 seed 2nd match, then wrestled and placed above 5th seeded wrestler who he teched head to head earlier in the year that was seeded above him)

145 - 11th seed finished 4th (placed above 3rd seeded wrestler that he beat head to head earlier in the year that was seeded above him) 

215- 9th seed finished 2nd (beating the 1st and the 4th seeded wrestlers)

HWT - 3rd seed DNP
4th seed DNP
9th seed finished 5th (placed above a wrestler beat head to head earlier in the year by pin and then pinned him again)

The moral of the story is that current season head to head victories matter and should be used somehow in the seeding formula for post-season. Overall, the seeding was good, but it could have been better by accounting for head to head wins in the current formula.
 
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The fixation on seedling is bewildering.  I tried to start a thread about the actual wrestling, and 5 posts in the discussion reverts to seeding.  The competition and individual performances is what makes this sport great.  
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I don’t think the fixation is “bewildering”. 
I totally understand the questions. 
A wrestler that has never lost to another wrestler (2-0),
Has a much better win percentage. Takes first at a tourney where the other places 4th. (Pins 2x national prep all American for first)
Gets seeded lower? 
Not bewildering at all.
JMHO 
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Enough with the seeding.

I seed a large national tournament and we have the ability to take H-T-H (which often end up being circular), tourney placements, etc. into account during our seeding meeting. And we do. This requires far more work than most on here can imagine - it is a year-round job and tabulates results over a long period of time. And we only need to track about a total of 400 to 500 wrestlers per year of which only about 250 to 300 acquire seeding points.

Also we are an INDEPENDENT committee and we have stayed in place for going on two decades.

This is not available for seeding PIAA postseason events. And it will never be. There is no seed czar that will be appointed that is independent and objective and will seed the tournament fully for like 700 wrestlers. And then be available to answer questions from coaches regarding the process.

So you have to create a seeding algorithm. And this is probably the best seeding algorithm I've seen put in place for any wrestling postseason tournament. It is really, really good. But even with really good algorithms there will be exceptions that require intervention to fix. 

If I could suggest one tweak I would suggest they move to more of a "high-bar" schedule prestige point system rather than an accumulated one (the accumulated one allows you to gain more points even if you are beating the same kid or caliber kid over and over and over) , this is what we do. It overcorrects for the winning pct/schedule strength issue IMO. But on the whole this is a really good system and I would be really, really surprised if anyone complaining about it on here could come up with a better alternative.


Edited by dicemen99 - Mar 05 2025 at 8:18am
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So you are saying there is a chance,
Provided you had intel, beans, bandages and bullets? 

Thank you for all the hard effort and dedication. 
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