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ancienthatteroldram
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Topic: Pin Fests Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 9:23am |
Looking over the boxscores for the 12/4 and 12/11 Wednesday dual meets I was struck by the very large number of pins recorded. I'm too lazy to check early season boxscores from prior years but off-hand I don't recall such a pin fest. Someone confirm or correct my impression.
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PAWrestlingCommenter
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 10:06am |
With no hard data to verify, based on anecdotal evidence, I think you're right that the number of pins in duals has been trending up in recent years. Even the larger tournaments (Ironman) seem to have more falls than a decade or so ago. Growing disparity in talent paired with less emphasis on team results?
Would be interesting to see what % of total District One matches ended by minor, major, tech, pin each year over the last decade or so since matches started being reliably tracked!
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Hullalleva
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 11:34am |
My take is that the referees today are not like your James Reynolds Thomas Corey Rick Solofsky Geoff Cook of yesteryear. Nowadays the referees.don't have as much prep time probably in the so-called minor leagues of refereeing. Maybe the baptism by fire approach. That's what's happening right now in the world of wrestling with the numbers of girls and boys especially females going double digits the last few years with growth.
I actually was going to become a PIAA wrestling referee & past the exam but because of personal and family matters I was unable to officially become a referee. I think it's a great way to burn extra calories while watching wrestling and it's pretty exhilarating to be able to go out there and have an opportunity to be included in a high school wrestling match which is sometimes extremely exciting
Edited by Hullalleva - Dec 14 2024 at 12:31am
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Bill Rudick
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 2:50pm |
Why would that result in more pin calls? Serious question. MANY other calls might be affected by an official's level of experience. I just don't see how the pin would be. I agree with the poster above--greater disparity in the level of experience among the athletes is the most likey cause
Edited by Bill Rudick - Dec 13 2024 at 2:50pm
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Hullalleva
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 4:04pm |
Bill Rudick BTW thank you for your service with the wrestling community going back some year. To further explain the reasoning behind what I said is trying to put yourself in their shoes they want to get home probably maybe they're younger their personalities are different now a days and that was just an opinion.
A pin is a black and white situation the match is over and when you're dealing with a lot of matches there's a superiority involved ALREADY IF YOU CAN GET TO THAT POSITION IN A MATCH i.e pin.Its my belief that one-on-one man against man-hand to band combat hand-if the shoulders are pinned in a split second it's a pin.
You can dig a deeper rabbit hole and speculate on which a quicker pin freestyle scholastic wrestling has a history of constantly changing rules all the way back and including the present time. I personally have been to multiple FILA international committee meetings during the late nineties & early 2000s when Milan Ercegan was FILA president.
Wrestling has a history of coaches that seem to never let go of that competitive attitude as much as other coaches in their respective sports. The culture being physical then add weight cutting the "sport" carries a heavy burden on some families with these additional sacrifices especially now during Christmas holidays when the topic most likely will turn to food and how much someone can or can't eat. No sport commands the attention to attitude more than a wrestlers intention to their mind & body.
Edited by Hullalleva - Dec 17 2024 at 11:34pm
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Bill Rudick
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 5:14pm |
Speaking as someone who refs a lot of folk and free, there have been way more substantial rules changes the past ten years, since the Save Olympic Wrestling movement, in folkstyle than freestyle. Freestyle has been more tweaks in interpretations or points of emphasis, compared to the wholesale changes in folk, like this year especially. Again, I simply don't see a lack of experience by officials leading to more pin calls because it is more of a black and white call.
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PAWrestlingCommenter
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 6:23pm |
I'm with Bill here -- not noticing any borderline pins/quick calls that coaches are disagreeing with (for the most part, I'd actually again anecdotally argue I'm seeing the younger refs doing a BETTER job)... merely more pins in general.
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Hullalleva
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Posted: Dec 13 2024 at 6:31pm |
Thanks for the background number crunchy knowledge BR. Another quick overall observation would be coalescing all three styles. Super easy to do which allows only ONE rule committee NOT PIAA NCAA YADA YADA.
Why not be on the same page with the rest of the world. It's almost like Israel saying Jerusalem is more important than Valley Forge Park. Wilson Park even. Anyway let's all do the right thing and advocate one style FREESTYLE or not. We can all have our opinion and be analogous when analyzing any situation especially when you keep it to science numbers & the cosmos.
I must admit my bias towards the old one period 5 minute match nineties freestyle. In a broader more common sense approach. Contextually & fundamentally it would be easier for a casual fan to follow. One 5 minute Period Senior Level. 4 minute HS College Level Youth Level 3 minute.
Freestyle rules no more greco. I say no more Greco-Roman for 3 obvious bullet points. Number one that the rules are too confusing. Two it's unsafe. Three is the opportunity cost of using mental physical energy mental bandwidth too much wrestling acumen on a sport like greco that has no business being an isolated sport with it's own rules.
Any argument falls flat on its feebleness face. Freestyle wrestling already has upper body available. Makes absolutely no logical sense IMHO. Keep it simple silly. With the uptick in female participation I don't see females wanting to do greco. Wrestling needs to wash their hands of GRECO.
Edited by Hullalleva - Dec 16 2024 at 2:05am
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ancienthatteroldram
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Posted: Dec 14 2024 at 7:29am |
H: I don't want a toke of whatever it is you are smoking, because I would not want my "opinion.. to be analogous when analyzing any situation especially when you keep it to science & the cosmos". LOL.
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Hullalleva
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Posted: Dec 14 2024 at 8:12am |
Never smoked & growing up with a Military Police Father from West Point I only say my prayers, eat my vitamins & listen to the old lady.
I mastered the headstand & enlightened the right side of my brain which makes me "irrationally exhuberant" when talking wrestling almost like The Fed Chair said one time about interest rates.
I always wanted to use that phrase. Thanks AHOR for coaxing the usage of a phrase I was hoping to use one day 
Edited by Hullalleva - Dec 14 2024 at 8:28am
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rechall
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Posted: Dec 14 2024 at 3:52pm |
Disparity in talent is certainly a key play here. Another I think people are overlooking is early season conditioning levels. Was watching a dual this week, several times bouts would be close for a period, maybe 2. But at some point for one kid, lack of conditioning kicks in, and over they go. Kids will go to their back faster and fight off less this early in the season when they are not in shape. As the season progresses, I think you will see less falls.
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ancienthatteroldram
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Posted: Dec 20 2024 at 2:52pm |
Wednesday Dec. 18.24 a total of 169 matches took place in D1. 84 ended in pins. Of the 84 pins, 50 occured in the first period. How refs would contribute to that astonishing number of pins is beyond me. Disparity in talent is certainly the main factor. Conditioning not so much. If the main cause of this pin fest was poor early season conditioning, I suspect most pins would come in the third period. Only 4 pins out of the 84 occured in the third period. Even in the two upper weights, the wrestlers usually don't run out of gas in the 2nd period- early season or not. As a side note why is the CRN vs. Wyoming results/boxscore not available? Slow pony express from Kingston ?
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Hullalleva
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Posted: Dec 20 2024 at 4:35pm |
AHOR thank you for keeping your eyes peeled out
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Tonydehaven
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Posted: Jan 15 2025 at 2:39pm |
AHOR you could expand your case study by making a post season PinFests part II. As the tough get going the tougher get tougher.
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ancienthatteroldram
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Posted: Jan 15 2025 at 7:38pm |
Tony: It's been twenty some years since you wrestled and I'm pretty sure pins were less common. Consider the recent first round championship bouts at the Winter Mayhem at IUP. About 175 bouts took place in that first round and only 24 were decided by decisions. For whatever reason, what I am seeing is that wrestling skills and talent amongst competitors is becoming more asymmetrical. This will result in more pins. In Districts, Regional and States ,as you well know, we will see fewer pins as talent becomes more symmetrical ,but at seasons end I'm sure any survey will show that pins have increased.
Edited by ancienthatteroldram - Jan 16 2025 at 6:59am
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Iknownothing
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Posted: Jan 16 2025 at 9:46am |
" Disparity in talent is certainly a key play here."
100% agree with this. The gap between seasonal multi-sport athletes and year around wrestlers has never been so great and it's only going to get greater. Also the gap between those willing to cut massive amounts of weight and those not seems to be growing as well.
These are all trade offs. Each kid and family has to decide what is best but for sure when you see these growing disparities, you'll see it on the mat.
Look at any box score for District 1 duals and tell me how many truly competitive matches there are each night. Most of the time, less than 3 matches per 13 match dual. Heck, even in the Faith / Sem dual there were only close matches in maybe 5 / 13.
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Tonydehaven
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Posted: Jan 16 2025 at 10:03am |

Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 16 2025 at 12:54pm
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Tonydehaven
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Posted: Jan 16 2025 at 10:06am |
Prego to my fellow wrestlers who have contributed phenomenal data points. Makes Rocky happy with such keen knowledge because it allows us to quantify decisions. Numbers no lie concrete every time.
Also females are not as concerned with who gets pinned IMHO. They may do it more for self defense reasons. I coached wrestling in California & I felt like proportion wise there was a ton of enthusiasm. Weight cutting culture and how emotionally girls react more monotone whether they take an L or get a victory.
Another way to interpret pin percentages would be to compare a state with Pennsylvania pins. PA vs CA at the state tournament. That way you have more of an apple apple comparison.
I coached females in the youth division & an athletic female can score many points. Both male & female should use wrestling for a cross training sport. The weight cutting is different comparing the two. Hand fighting skills are ubiquitous throughout most sports.
Mull it over and kick the tires do the math with regards to VO2MAX. Even the great Cael Sanderson says it on one of his posters. Wrestling started on a beach man and women both participating no concentration on weight classes.
Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 16 2025 at 10:00pm
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Blast Double
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Posted: Jan 25 2025 at 9:16am |
Wrestling in the 80’s was like WWF (WWE Now). It took like 3 seconds to pin somebody. High School now has adopted the speed in which college calls pins. From my vantage point it seems: Youth, longer Middle, shorter High School, even shorter College as it’s always been
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