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ancienthatteroldram View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 25 2025 at 1:27pm
Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:

BTW, how do we still not have a Sun Valley-Pennridge box score up? C'mon coaches!!!
 

And today we have the results of the Emma's match BUT no box score. Someone at Pennridge needs to get on the stick. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 25 2025 at 3:42pm
Originally posted by ancienthatteroldram ancienthatteroldram wrote:

Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:

BTW, how do we still not have a Sun Valley-Pennridge box score up? C'mon coaches!!!
 

And today we have the results of the Emma's match BUT no box score. Someone at Pennridge needs to get on the stick. 

We do have the box score of  Quakertown vs. a mediocre Liberty squad though. Liberty got beat by 40 by Emmaus, and by 60 at Northampton. They must have been psyched to face the #1 team in D1.

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 25 2025 at 4:11pm
  [QUOTE=Dicemen99... 
We do have the box score of  Quakertown vs. a mediocre Liberty squad though. Liberty got beat by 40 by Emmaus, and by 60 at Northampton. They must have been psyched to face the #1 team in D1.]QUOTE]

Other possibilities suggest themselves:  1. Liberty is not such a mediocre team as their losses to NA and Emmaus seem to indicate.  2. Northampton and Emmaus are exceptionally strong this year. 3. Even a mediocre D-11 team is always a tough match for any D-1 team. 4. Liberty, psyched or not, did not face D-1's #1 team. 

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote K88 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 25 2025 at 8:46pm
Quakertown is not a complete team, but they have enough talent and flexibility to pretty much beat anyone else who isn't, especially winning the toss. They of course have two guys who are going to both win 95% of the time in a dual, then two more who win most of the time, and then six more who will beat anyone average or lower.  Just three guys in the lineup below .500, one of which they hide up top. So they'll cough up 20+ pts to everybody, but typically navigate their way to 30-40. That leaves a thin margin for error, and eyeing up box scores today, looks like they were missing one role player that led to Liberty's 7th win, and if I had to guess based on records, another got stuck by someone he was expected to beat.

IMO, Boyertown is the only team in D1 that has a lineup where it's tough to envision a Qtown win. But given the win over Saucon Valley and the fact that Qtown lost by 5 to a NH team Boyertown lost to by 15 (with the same lineups, on the same day), hard to say it's not justified. Seems to me Btown is the clear #1 with the next 3-4 teams all bunched together, and Qtown was the one that had the comps to argue being seeded higher than them. I think there's a valid argument that CRS could be the 1 seed, but of course they have the chance to prove it against Boyertown. And Qtown vs. CRS... go study the lineups. I see a pretty clear path to 6 wins for Qtown and 2 tossups after that. In a perfect world they're figuring it out in the district semis, but I don't think it's some inexplicable travesty that it didn't turn out that way.

Also, go take a look at the state duals bracket and tell me who has a better chance of reaching the state semis. Is it the 1-3 having to beat 12-2 and 3-1 (likely either Gettysburg, who in addition to CRS just lost to State College, or Wilson, who lost to CRN) to catch 7-2 in the quarters? Or is it the 1-2 having to beat 12-1 to wrestle 11-1 (BECA) in the quarters? Careful what you wish for. And BTW if they both lose in the state quarters, you get the 1-2 vs 1-3 match in the state wrestlebacks anyway, and everybody can exhale.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 25 2025 at 9:06pm
Quakertown Head Kurt Handel was a very tenacious wrestler. His mentality meant he was going to throw everything at you including the kitchen sink. He became a terrific coach. John Rittenhouse & Coach Hangey forever legends in the sport of Pennsylvania wrestling in my book.

If you skip to minute 23 PIAA AAA State Finals you can see JR running up into the stands to join his family in celebration after pinning his foe.


Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 26 2025 at 7:43am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2025 at 7:37am
The first match with Bob Truby is fantastic. I was teammates with Bob for one year at Penn State when I redshirted. What a year to be at PSU. That Penn State wrestling team beat Iowa in a dual that year to win College National Dual Team Title. The Iowa team PSU beat that year was one of their best teams ever.  At the end of the year in 1991 Iowa claimed the National Championship in dominating fashion.

Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 26 2025 at 7:40am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2025 at 8:03am
Here is one of the matches https://youtu.be/LW34SD3MHXE

Troy Sundered former Penn State wrestling Head.

Also Josh Henson from North Penn was always an anomaly to me. Look at his high school career. He wins states after being irrelevant for his first three years. He should write a book to describe what created such an incredible turnaround.

John Hangey can almost be included. JH never qualified for states then wins it all to claim Hershey Gold.

Both should share their story to inspire all young wrestlers.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2025 at 9:23am
Originally posted by K88 K88 wrote:

Quakertown is not a complete team, but they have enough talent and flexibility to pretty much beat anyone else who isn't, especially winning the toss. They of course have two guys who are going to both win 95% of the time in a dual, then two more who win most of the time, and then six more who will beat anyone average or lower.  Just three guys in the lineup below .500, one of which they hide up top. So they'll cough up 20+ pts to everybody, but typically navigate their way to 30-40. That leaves a thin margin for error, and eyeing up box scores today, looks like they were missing one role player that led to Liberty's 7th win, and if I had to guess based on records, another got stuck by someone he was expected to beat.

IMO, Boyertown is the only team in D1 that has a lineup where it's tough to envision a Qtown win. But given the win over Saucon Valley and the fact that Qtown lost by 5 to a NH team Boyertown lost to by 15 (with the same lineups, on the same day), hard to say it's not justified. Seems to me Btown is the clear #1 with the next 3-4 teams all bunched together, and Qtown was the one that had the comps to argue being seeded higher than them. I think there's a valid argument that CRS could be the 1 seed, but of course they have the chance to prove it against Boyertown. And Qtown vs. CRS... go study the lineups. I see a pretty clear path to 6 wins for Qtown and 2 tossups after that. In a perfect world they're figuring it out in the district semis, but I don't think it's some inexplicable travesty that it didn't turn out that way.

Also, go take a look at the state duals bracket and tell me who has a better chance of reaching the state semis. Is it the 1-3 having to beat 12-2 and 3-1 (likely either Gettysburg, who in addition to CRS just lost to State College, or Wilson, who lost to CRN) to catch 7-2 in the quarters? Or is it the 1-2 having to beat 12-1 to wrestle 11-1 (BECA) in the quarters? Careful what you wish for. And BTW if they both lose in the state quarters, you get the 1-2 vs 1-3 match in the state wrestlebacks anyway, and everybody can exhale.

Agreed. I've started before that Quakertown has the talent to win it all. As dues Boyertown, as does CR South. 

But it's not the committee's job to analyze matchups. When you seed teams (or individuals for that matter) you compare resumes and put them in the spot they've earned. Whether the 6 can beat the 3 is not relevant. What's relevant is the wins and losses that have occurred on the mat.

I like Quakertown and think they can win it all. I'm not complaining about them. If there were another clear example, I would use that, but that's one I'm very familiar with. 

More the process. And if you're going to have a process that isn't clear about what goes into the rationale - are injuries considered, comparative scores, wins vs. losses - expect to have some blowback especially when people know the coaches are involved in the process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2025 at 11:52am
Another one of my Penn State Wrestling cohorts & current Wrestling Club President Dave Hart

I wrestled Fry From Missouri my senior year at semifinals 18 under USA Wrestling trials in Wisconsin. John DuPont & Dave Schultz decided it was a good idea to send me out to the tournament alone at 74kg. I won the match but Fry broke my right big toe. Still broke no joke above my big bunion.


Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 26 2025 at 12:25pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 26 2025 at 2:55pm
One more Last memory before the Eagles play while listening to Michael Quick on 94.1. Freshman year Fall 1990 was not going to wrestle off but ended up going up to 177lb wrestled off Matt White. No problem during the year in the practice room with him. There is tape on this match but have not seen it anyway Matt head butted me by accident blood all over then Oishi says bring Brick (that is what he called me & still calls me) a mask. Coach Lorenzo proceeded to put a mask on me. I finish that much lose in overtime or by a point. Coaches say wrestle another match with Matt White because wrestle off was best out of three. Before too long we just said forget it. Funny part of the story is next week at East Strausburg open at 158lbs wrestle first match with a mask on with stitches default against Caro from Maryland.

Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 26 2025 at 3:20pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 6:26am
Excellent video about the 1991 Iowa wrestlers.
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I agree Dice, but in my opinion there is way too much "if Big John was not hurt" or "if little John did not miss weight" we "would have beat X" and it actually carries weight....  It is total garbage because it is likely that the other coach would have wrestled his line up different if that wrestler was in the line up.

In a normal world should NOT we see situations where a team loses a head to head and somehow gets seeded above the team that beat them.  Directly into a repeat of a match they already won?  How in the world can that happen?  This is Garnet and Haverford to save everyone time of looking it up.  The seeding questions lie in the middle as much as they do the top.

Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:

Originally posted by K88 K88 wrote:

Quakertown is not a complete team, but they have enough talent and flexibility to pretty much beat anyone else who isn't, especially winning the toss. They of course have two guys who are going to both win 95% of the time in a dual, then two more who win most of the time, and then six more who will beat anyone average or lower.  Just three guys in the lineup below .500, one of which they hide up top. So they'll cough up 20+ pts to everybody, but typically navigate their way to 30-40. That leaves a thin margin for error, and eyeing up box scores today, looks like they were missing one role player that led to Liberty's 7th win, and if I had to guess based on records, another got stuck by someone he was expected to beat.

IMO, Boyertown is the only team in D1 that has a lineup where it's tough to envision a Qtown win. But given the win over Saucon Valley and the fact that Qtown lost by 5 to a NH team Boyertown lost to by 15 (with the same lineups, on the same day), hard to say it's not justified. Seems to me Btown is the clear #1 with the next 3-4 teams all bunched together, and Qtown was the one that had the comps to argue being seeded higher than them. I think there's a valid argument that CRS could be the 1 seed, but of course they have the chance to prove it against Boyertown. And Qtown vs. CRS... go study the lineups. I see a pretty clear path to 6 wins for Qtown and 2 tossups after that. In a perfect world they're figuring it out in the district semis, but I don't think it's some inexplicable travesty that it didn't turn out that way.

Also, go take a look at the state duals bracket and tell me who has a better chance of reaching the state semis. Is it the 1-3 having to beat 12-2 and 3-1 (likely either Gettysburg, who in addition to CRS just lost to State College, or Wilson, who lost to CRN) to catch 7-2 in the quarters? Or is it the 1-2 having to beat 12-1 to wrestle 11-1 (BECA) in the quarters? Careful what you wish for. And BTW if they both lose in the state quarters, you get the 1-2 vs 1-3 match in the state wrestlebacks anyway, and everybody can exhale.

Agreed. I've started before that Quakertown has the talent to win it all. As dues Boyertown, as does CR South. 

But it's not the committee's job to analyze matchups. When you seed teams (or individuals for that matter) you compare resumes and put them in the spot they've earned. Whether the 6 can beat the 3 is not relevant. What's relevant is the wins and losses that have occurred on the mat.

I like Quakertown and think they can win it all. I'm not complaining about them. If there were another clear example, I would use that, but that's one I'm very familiar with. 

More the process. And if you're going to have a process that isn't clear about what goes into the rationale - are injuries considered, comparative scores, wins vs. losses - expect to have some blowback especially when people know the coaches are involved in the process.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 10:05am
1991 NCAA NATIONAL FINALS 158lbs
Pat Smith Oklahoma State vs Tom Ryan Iowa
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 12:14pm
Originally posted by DelcoProper DelcoProper wrote:

I agree Dice, but in my opinion there is way too much "if Big John was not hurt" or "if little John did not miss weight" we "would have beat X" and it actually carries weight....  It is total garbage because it is likely that the other coach would have wrestled his line up different if that wrestler was in the line up.

In a normal world should NOT we see situations where a team loses a head to head and somehow gets seeded above the team that beat them.  Directly into a repeat of a match they already won?  How in the world can that happen?  This is Garnet and Haverford to save everyone time of looking it up.  The seeding questions lie in the middle as much as they do the top.


In the same way, Garnet beat Pennsbury in the regular season but was 5 seeds lower. So they just beat them again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DelcoProper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 1:15pm
Thanks Charles, but you skipped the main question...

Why was Garnet seeded higher than Haverford?

12/18    Haverford 34 Garnet 27

HH was 12-1....  I am trying to be realistic.  I don't think they should have been in the top 8, but why below Garnet...  is it because 1 coach has more friends on the committee?  Or maybe they split and the other box score is missing???  Asking for a friend

Originally posted by charles charles wrote:

Originally posted by DelcoProper DelcoProper wrote:

I agree Dice, but in my opinion there is way too much "if Big John was not hurt" or "if little John did not miss weight" we "would have beat X" and it actually carries weight....  It is total garbage because it is likely that the other coach would have wrestled his line up different if that wrestler was in the line up.

In a normal world should NOT we see situations where a team loses a head to head and somehow gets seeded above the team that beat them.  Directly into a repeat of a match they already won?  How in the world can that happen?  This is Garnet and Haverford to save everyone time of looking it up.  The seeding questions lie in the middle as much as they do the top.


In the same way, Garnet beat Pennsbury in the regular season but was 5 seeds lower. So they just beat them again. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 1:32pm
Iowa Room vs Foxcatcher Room
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (2) Thanks(2)   Quote James Hellwig Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 2:23pm
Can somebody get Tony his own thread that he can post all of his nostalgia to so we can get this thread back on topic!? Big smile
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 2:29pm
James Hellwig you can answer your own question.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Tonydehaven Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jan 27 2025 at 2:30pm
Agreed it was intrusive with possibly bit of irrational exuberance. One more motivation song for purposes of demonstration. Taking off until the season is over the old lady fell & broke her leg last week which means extra duty around the house less foolishness.

Edited by Tonydehaven - Jan 27 2025 at 3:09pm
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Re: Garnet v Haverford—
My guess would be it was discussed at the meeting.  In the head to head meeting, GV was without their state qualifier in the lineup- a significant swing in team points. More recently, GV finished ahead of Haverford in the league tournament despite missing multiple starters. Thirdly, Haverford’s dual meet schedule looked significantly weaker than GV— who is their best win outside of GV?  
No horse in the race for me, and no insight on how the meeting went. Just thought it was an interesting case.  As it turns out, GV was the only lower seed to advance to the quarterfinals, so maybe there’s some justification in that, too. GV always seems to get stronger in January once all those football players (most of their lineup every year) shake off some rust/get on weight. 
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