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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baby78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 3:28pm
Although I agree with that comment, I cannot blame any higher caliber competitor to search for the best scenario to succeed.  

In my opinion, there are plenty of local kids that would have been more successful going to other areas where the competition and exposure are much greater.  Strength of schedule plays a huge role in the exposure of an athlete and his preparation for the post-season.  I actually believe one aspect of post-season rankings are based on strength of competition.  

The shame is that District One was once was much more competitive than it currently is.  A lot of the league matches have become an absolute joke for the kids looking to make a post-season run.  Some of the District One schools have such soft schedules, that the wrestlers are entering the post-season with close to 30 wins and get knocked out of regionals in two matches.  

I do not know the solution to this problem, but I do not remember people transferring to other districts or areas when I was younger.   It now seems like they are doing it to avoid becoming stagnant.

I have a ton of respect for the kids that stick it out and are able to succeed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berwyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 3:50pm
ancienthatteroldram great vocab I enjoy looking the words up on Google.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 4:58pm
Originally posted by cbal24 cbal24 wrote:

Tough to build a program when the kids that can elevate the room leave for greener pastures.  It's a shame for CBE if he goes elsewhere.
 
Oh baloney. The kid owes no fealty to CBE. Instead of feeling sorry for CBE, we wish the kid best of luck and be glad for the opportunity this move opens for him. We seek greener pastures every time we shop and compare cost on our purchases. Education is a commodity not unlike a car and we buy what we feel best meets our needs. CBE will have many more opportunities to elevate their program, a young athlete only has one shot at a high school career.


Edited by ancienthatteroldram - Jul 23 2019 at 5:15pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mo bloodyoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 5:17pm
Good for the kid, but people in District 1 are allowed to wish their best athletes would stick around and help elevate programs instead of run to stacked prep teams. But I guess that's what sports is, choosing sides.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seanod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 5:51pm
Maybe a couple poster should know more history of the kid before commenting   He has been coached and trained by a certain club in district 11 for quite a long time. The coaching , Competition and training he was exposed too have lead to his success (plus his hard work). Makes perfect sense that he would continue on the same path.   Great kid wish him the best. And I’m been a d1 guy for 50 some yrs.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 9:16pm
Originally posted by JVStateChamp JVStateChamp wrote:

Kasak to BECAHI? Maybe. You would know better than me. But only if Frinzi has put on some weight. He was a bloodround loss at states I believe. A tested D11 106er who stands 5'7". Thats a tough route for any freshman.

Frinzi is pushing 130 right now...

Seanod is exactly right on this one.  In fact, his comment in general can be applied to many situations.  Those lamenting it just haven't figured out it's 2019-2020 this coming season.

Kids who have an option where to attend high school are likely to weigh multiple factors including relationship with coaches, training situations, academic situation, etc.  Why wouldn't they - wouldn't you want to do that for your kid?

You can build a program in D1, there are multiple examples of quality programs in our district.  It's not just luck.  


Edited by dicemen99 - Jul 23 2019 at 9:31pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mctuna40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 9:39pm
Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:

Originally posted by JVStateChamp JVStateChamp wrote:

Kasak to BECAHI? Maybe. You would know better than me. But only if Frinzi has put on some weight. He was a bloodround loss at states I believe. A tested D11 106er who stands 5'7". Thats a tough route for any freshman.


Frinzi is pushing 130 right now...

Seanod is exactly right on this one.  In fact, his comment in general can be applied to many situations.  Those lamenting it just haven't figured out it's 2019-2020 this coming season.

Kids who have an option where to attend high school are likely to weigh multiple factors including relationship with coaches, training situations, academic situation, etc.  Why wouldn't they - wouldn't you want to do that for your kid?

You can build a program in D1, there are multiple examples of quality programs in our district.  It's not just luck.  



Great post!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 23 2019 at 9:47pm
Originally posted by mo bloodyoung mo bloodyoung wrote:

Good for the kid, but people in District 1 are allowed to wish their best athletes would stick around and help elevate programs instead of run to stacked prep teams. But I guess that's what sports is, choosing sides.
 
I'll take what is good for the kid over what is good for District 1 every time. The kid is a particular tangible sentient being- whereas D 1 is simply a useful construct, a convenient abstraction.  
 
If your casual cynicism about sports being merely a matter of "choosing sides" is at all true , by all means let us do away with these farcical eenie meenie miney mo charades. Better yet, put brain in gear before dispensing inanities.


Edited by ancienthatteroldram - Jul 23 2019 at 9:52pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2019 at 5:58am
Originally posted by cbal24 cbal24 wrote:

Tough to build a program when the kids that can elevate the room leave for greener pastures.  It's a shame for CBE if he goes elsewhere.
 
How dare you feel bad for CB East. Jeff Karam is entitled to the best talent in his area, which apparently now includes northern District 1. Not only do you have to accept that, you have to like it too.
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cbal24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2019 at 11:36am
Originally posted by ancienthatteroldram ancienthatteroldram wrote:

Originally posted by cbal24 cbal24 wrote:

Tough to build a program when the kids that can elevate the room leave for greener pastures.  It's a shame for CBE if he goes elsewhere.
 
Oh baloney. The kid owes no fealty to CBE. Instead of feeling sorry for CBE, we wish the kid best of luck and be glad for the opportunity this move opens for him. We seek greener pastures every time we shop and compare cost on our purchases. Education is a commodity not unlike a car and we buy what we feel best meets our needs. CBE will have many more opportunities to elevate their program, a young athlete only has one shot at a high school career.
 
I'm not knocking the kid, just making an observation as to why area programs can't seem to improve.  Many posts have been made on improving area wrestling.  Improving the wrestling culture in a school is the best way to do that.  It isn't about fealty.  I've witnessed programs elevate through one kid staying and being successful. 
 
 
Win or lose, do it with class!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcougar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2019 at 2:10pm
The amalgamation of talent into a few national level programs is the new reality. I acknowledge that for an individual superstar, that path might be best option from his perspective. But is it good for the sport? 

The PIAA has accepted parochial & charter schools into the fold, knowing full well what the result would be. No big surprise, St Joe's is dominating football, BECAHI and Notre Dame Green Pond and similar programs are taking over wrestling. Some school with an Egyptian name is dominating basketball. When a team from a single locality wins a state title, it's big news. 

Returning to wrestling: some people care only for individual wrestling achievements. But I've always loved the team aspect of it. When a group of kids grow up together, learn together and finally win together, what could be more satisfying than that? To have a bunch of hired guns come for a year or two and then move on, with no sense of 'team' to mold the group? For me, that's diminishes the experience. It takes away a great deal of what makes the sport fun. 

Guys from my old team still laugh about the fact that our Elementary School, with 200 students, won regionals one year (1/4 of the state back then) with 2 firsts, a second and a fourth.  Now kids on the big teams went to their elementary schools in different states!  

How does one build tradition when your team is made up of carpetbaggers? Oldhatter, don't try to dazzle me with your vocabulary while attempting to belittle my arguement. I fully understand your investment in wrestling anarchy. 

But I like teams.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 24 2019 at 3:50pm
OC: It pains me that you accuse me of wrestling anarchy. In truth I'm not sure what all that term entails, so a few examples of where or how  I raised my black flag of anarchy would be helpful. In the meantime, I just returned home and we are on the way to an Iron Pig game, hence no time for a proper response. Let me quickly add, that my investment is not with wrestling anarchy, but with wrestling diversity, because diversity is our strength as a wrestling community and as a nation. Therefore  what could be more diverse and inclusive, less xenophobic and misanthropic , more all-American and welcoming all who seek a better deal, a better shopping experience, a better future for themselves and their posterity, with open arms. What better way to affirm all that we are, and all that we are not.  than adding parochial and charter schools into that magic melting pot fold of PIAA sports.  As always, good to hear from you;  you always present a good case and cogent arguments.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 12:21am
Originally posted by oldcougar oldcougar wrote:

The amalgamation of talent into a few national level programs is the new reality. I acknowledge that for an individual superstar, that path might be best option from his perspective. But is it good for the sport? 

The PIAA has accepted parochial & charter schools into the fold, knowing full well what the result would be. No big surprise, St Joe's is dominating football, BECAHI and Notre Dame Green Pond and similar programs are taking over wrestling. Some school with an Egyptian name is dominating basketball. When a team from a single locality wins a state title, it's big news. 

Returning to wrestling: some people care only for individual wrestling achievements. But I've always loved the team aspect of it. When a group of kids grow up together, learn together and finally win together, what could be more satisfying than that? To have a bunch of hired guns come for a year or two and then move on, with no sense of 'team' to mold the group? For me, that's diminishes the experience. It takes away a great deal of what makes the sport fun. 

Guys from my old team still laugh about the fact that our Elementary School, with 200 students, won regionals one year (1/4 of the state back then) with 2 firsts, a second and a fourth.  Now kids on the big teams went to their elementary schools in different states!  

How does one build tradition when your team is made up of carpetbaggers? Oldhatter, don't try to dazzle me with your vocabulary while attempting to belittle my arguement. I fully understand your investment in wrestling anarchy. 

But I like teams.

You are way off base here.  Although you can always cite an example of an individual carpetbagger (and they were around 20-30-40 years ago as well), this isn't what is going on in wrestling today.  You guys are just paying attention to the HS scene and not paying attention to what's going on at the youth level.  

I am often amazed at the skill level exhibited by young wrestlers entering HS.  The teams you are waxing poetically about would get their as*es handed to them by the top teams if they were to time travel to the present day.  So would the great CR teams of the 70s, the North Penn teams of the 80s.  I don't think there is much debate about that.  The team you talk about probably had some kids that were great athletes, excelled at other sports, and some that probably took up the sport late and just went out originally so they would be playing a winter sport and excelled.  CD Mock started wrestling in 9th grade, was a regional champ in 11th, a state champ as a SR and a National Champ 4 years later.  At a very tough weight.  That doesn't happen today.

The skill level has dramatically risen.  And it's because of what's going on at the youth level.  You can debate whether it is good or bad for the sport, but it is the reality of it.  Youth programs are dramatically different today than the times you are talking about.  The better programs have adapted at the youth level and you see it pay dividends at the HS level - most have not.  Many youth programs are in shambles.  Programs that routinely were large and had kids that trained together from elementary to HS - maybe they weren't powerhouses, but they turned out some good kids.  Many of these programs are a shell of their former selves.

The head coach at ND Green Pond is Matt Veres.  He's been training kids at his club for some time now.  Early on, many of those kids attended BECA.  Now, he's got he's own gig - expect a bunch of them to show up at ND Green Pond.  These kids have been training together for years.  The ARE a team, maybe not quite the same as when you went to school, but the reality of present day.

People love to bitch about Malvern on here and lament when a kid attends there instead of going to his "home" school.  If the same people were paying attention when the kid was in the youth ranks, most of the time they'd have noticed that the kid was training at Malvern regularly for years.  Making the drive, practicing extra nights when the other kids were playing video games, searching out the best partners- basically everything that made the kid good.  And then it's something to "lament" - that he didn't stay in the PIAA or in D1 - I just can't understand that line of thinking.

Most of the time - I'm sure you can cite some exceptions, there are always exceptions -  when these situations like the one we are discussing come up, it's no surprise to anyone close to or even peripherally aware of the situation.  The kid has been "going' there for years.  All the people who mattered already knew that, just the people on this forum who didn't.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote mo bloodyoung Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 7:34am
At least Malvern doesn't screw the public school kids over in postseasons...
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 7:38am

dice: Well said, great synopsis of how the concept of what constitutes a "team" has changed. A teams composition is no longer confined to cohorts from a local school engaged in "building tradition". State wide youth teams, or more localized club teams , constituted just as much  a team, and builds as long lasting in group friendships, as the "old elementary school ..(teams).. with 200 kids".

OC: You employ the phrase "carpetbaggers" and "hired guns" in reference to certain teams. You realize of course that one could easily make the argument that your favorite wrestling team has its share  of out of state carpetbaggers and scholarship hired guns.  And for what it's worth, don't confuse an anarchist with a reactionary. I am the latter, I despise most changes and put tradition above supposedly progressive innovations- be they in our culture at large or in the micro-culture of wrestling. And we all like teams but that does not require and either/or choice, it's really  more like both/and.   
 
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 8:30am
Originally posted by mo bloodyoung mo bloodyoung wrote:

At least Malvern doesn't screw the public school kids over in postseasons...
 
You're not allowed to say that. You are about to be reprimanded by the defenders. Their standard talking points will be used.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berwyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 9:30am
dicemen99 the skill level around this area was at it's best when Foxcatcher had it's junior program. Foxcatcher's Dave Schultz & 10 time world medalist Valentin Jordanov were the best technically and the rest of the coaches would learn from them. Remember the United States won it's first freestyle title in 1993 another one in 1995 and then the Olympics in 1996. We have dropped off technically since the two are not around any longer.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtimer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 12:49pm
Great post Dice as per usual, and I couldnt agree more.

Having watched the way both Matt V and Nate L ran their youth practices over the yrs, I was always amazed at the quality of talent they could cultivate. I recall watching Nate Lauter take 50 youth kids, develop them over the yr, get 30 or so to PJWs and end up having 20 or so place- no small feat.

I actually think that if you are a Dist 1 fan, you owe some gratitude to Nate Lauter and Matt Veres (as well as Brad Sil, Joe Erb's SEPA, Contender Elite, and all the club coaches) because they are helping to develop our young men regardless of where they are going to go to school. God knows a good portion of the top talent in the SE has spent time training/working with at least one of these coaches. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Baby78 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 1:27pm
There is no denying there are some top-notch coaches in the District 1 area.  I wonder if what separates the elite kids from the very good kids is the quality of the competition in their respective rooms, more so than the coaching itself.  If the practice partners are not decent for both drilling and live wrestling, it leaves a lot to be desired.  If the wrestler is not getting realistic looks while drilling, what is the point?

Do not get me wrong, there are some elite kids in District 1.  I wonder if those kids are going above and beyond their school's programs and practicing elsewhere too.  I wonder if they have to put double the time in that someone wrestling in a top-tier program would get just by going to their regular practices?

In regards to those club teams--they are getting numbers.  Those numbers are giving the upper tier kids the opportunity to see other upper tier kids in the room on a regular basis.  I imagine if I were to stop in a Dark Knights, Malvern, Lost Boys or Weaver Elite practice, I would be seeing many high caliber wrestlers brawling.  That is a major part of the equation.

I can not blame anyone for wanting to be in a situation where they are able to get not only great coaching, but to also have a wrestling room filled with many kids that are looking to accomplish the goal of being on top of the podium.  A lot of the the powerhouse schools have rooms filled with like-minded kids.  They are there to work and achieve their goals.  It just happens their goals are a little more lofty than other areas.

Is the same drive and motivation evident locally?  I can say it does not appear so to me.






Edited by Baby78 - Jul 25 2019 at 1:32pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldtimer Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jul 25 2019 at 1:42pm
taking a poke at the kids in our area saying they dont have the drive or work ethic?

Bruh...stop into a OJR,CRS,DTW,NESH,CRN,SF and start spouting that kind of talk, would be fun to see one of the guys you malign toss you around like a rag doll. Saying stuff like this is jv man
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