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Southeast Region could lose state qualifiers

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    Posted: Apr 07 2022 at 2:37pm
Looks like the Southeast Region could possibly only have 3 qualifiers for the individual state championships. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote rocky Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 07 2022 at 5:10pm
From what I read on Facebook thread, sounds like a done deal. And unfortunately for D1, probably a fair thing.

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The Jet's proposal for AAA state qualifiers:
Each of the five regions' top 3 automatically qualify for states.  The remaining 5 spots are wildcards selected from among the 4th through 6th place finishers in each region, a pool of 15 wrestlers.  The wildcard selections are based on a set of objective criteria such as:
Criteria 1: Prior state medals earned
Criteria 2: Wins over returning state medalists
Criteria 3:Wins over THIS SEASON'S automatic state qualifiers 
Criteria 4: Wins over wresters from the pool of 15 vying for the 5 berths
Criteria 5: Wins over returning state qualifiers (so in 2023 this would be wins over 2022 state qualifiers)
Criteria 6: The cut of a wrestler's jib

The criteria would be tiered, like the tiebreakers for a dual meet, not cumulative.  So, for example, if five of the fifteen wrestlers who finished 4th through 6th in a region had medaled in states previously, those five would earn the five spots, regardless of the other criteria.

Details of the criteria would have to be worked out, and maybe more would have to be added, but there are no flaws to this system, so let's open it up to general agreement and effusive praise for the Jet.


Edited by bennythejetrodriguez - Apr 08 2022 at 9:42am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Peterson5 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2022 at 1:00pm
In theory I like the Jets idea because it doesn't allocate based on the PREVIOUS YEAR. 
However, the Jets idea also means that a lot of kids will finish their regional tournament without knowing if they made it to states or not. Not the end of the world, but not ideal. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote sweepsingle135 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 08 2022 at 3:56pm
4 regions with 5 qualifiers each seemed to be the best idea IMO.  We are statically the biggest district in the state.  If we start awarding qualifiers based on quality of wrestlers, we are going to run into problems down the road. District 7/11 do medal the most, but no other sport in the PIAA awards state qualifiers based on results. 

Also biased because I loved getting 5 to states out of the SE region. 

Hopefully this does not pass, or we can at least get a 4th qualifier. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 2takedowngreen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 12:34am
Going back to the 16 man brackets I always thought the "extra qualifier" should go to the region with the most returning medalists. With the 20 man bracket, every region should start with 4 qualifiers. The region with the most returning medalists gets a 5th qualifier and the region with the fewest returning medalists gets 3 qualifiers. I don't like 2 regions with 5 qualifiers and 2 with 3 qualifiers.

Sticking with the current formula of going strictly by number of schools would be awful. In none of the Jet's timelines does SE deserve 5 qualifiers while SW gets 3.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KC1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 12:39pm
So now would be a good time to get Faith Christian to petition up to AAA.  

I am okay with keeping the representation consistent among all sports and letting the chips fall where they may.  District 1 is penalized under proposal for the number of quality non-PIAA options in the region.


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote KC1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 1:02pm
So i quickly looked at another individual representation sport like wrestling.  Golf uses the same formula for determining qualifiers - based on how many schools sponsoring the sport in each district yet when you look at last years results, 1/2 of the top 10 finishers in boys and girls AAA tournaments were from District 1 schools.  I guess they should start clamoring for more qualifiers now too.  


Also with 5 qualifiers, how many times do we see SE vs SE on the backside?  plenty of times SE kids get knocked out of medaling by other SE kids.  I wouldn't necessarily assume  more qualifiers from SW will automatically spike their medal totals.  
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Originally posted by KC1 KC1 wrote:


Also with 5 qualifiers, how many times do we see SE vs SE on the backside?  plenty of times SE kids get knocked out of medaling by other SE kids.  I wouldn't necessarily assume  more qualifiers from SW will automatically spike their medal totals.  

I don't follow the logic of your point about SE kids eliminating each other. Just look at the number of 4th place SW wrestlers who medaled compared to the number of 4th and 5th place SE wrestlers who medaled this year or any other year.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berwyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 3:09pm
4 regions 3 from each might make sense & simple to plan.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 7:00pm
Originally posted by KC1 KC1 wrote:

So i quickly looked at another individual representation sport like wrestling.  Golf uses the same formula for determining qualifiers - based on how many schools sponsoring the sport in each district yet when you look at last years results, 1/2 of the top 10 finishers in boys and girls AAA tournaments were from District 1 schools.  I guess they should start clamoring for more qualifiers now too.  

No one knows if any of these proposed changes will get approved, but this is something I thought of right away when I heard about the proposed change to qualifiers.  None of the PIAA sports have any kind of "quality" qualification for states based on previous years results.  Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad but it would be brand new territory for the PIAA.  I read that some on the committee mentioned sports like track and swimming that have a set number of qualifiers per District plus you can qualify if you hit certain times/distances/etc but that's not the same as what they are proposing here.  Comparing that to wrestling would be like saying each region gets 3 per weight but then anyone with 40 wins and less than 6 losses qualifies too.

Anyway, if they do approve this for wrestling, you are absolutely correct... other sports will start asking for it right away.

These proposed changes are clearly due to District 7 losing a state qualifier in AAA based on number of schools (they had a bunch of schools drop to AA). I also saw somewhere that the proposal would mean the SW AA region would go from 6 to 5 qualifiers...and they gain a bunch of schools in this cycle.  While it may benefit D7 AAA in wrestling, it could hurt them in other sports.  I'd be curious to find out which Districts at the PIAA level are in full support of this and which are against it.

My gut instinct says they won't approve the state qualifiers proposal for this season but could revisit it later for future years.  On going to 4 classes for team states, I can't get a read on if that'll pass or not.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KC1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 9:31pm
Originally posted by bennythejetrodriguez bennythejetrodriguez wrote:

Originally posted by KC1 KC1 wrote:


Also with 5 qualifiers, how many times do we see SE vs SE on the backside?  plenty of times SE kids get knocked out of medaling by other SE kids.  I wouldn't necessarily assume  more qualifiers from SW will automatically spike their medal totals.  

I don't follow the logic of your point about SE kids eliminating each other. Just look at the number of 4th place SW wrestlers who medaled compared to the number of 4th and 5th place SE wrestlers who medaled this year or any other year.

I was just contemplating that having the 5th qualifier doesn't necessarily only help the region that gets it and having an extra qualifier just means that someone from another region has a slightly easier path to medal since the SE5 doesn't face the SE1-SE4 on the front side of the bracket (at least it didn't used to) and then you often see SE vs SE on the consy side eliminating another SE.   Probably overthinking it.


I looked up SW4 medalist in 2022 and 5 medaled in the upper weights.  3 were seniors who would not count in the new proposal and 2 were underclassmen.  @170 Jacobs beat SE-4 in consys by decision  then won by Inj Def in blood round.

@189 Marian lost to SE-3 in front side then beat SE-5 and SE-2 in consys 

So I don't know what formula is proposed to be but that doesn't look like the dominance warranting a change.  

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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote DelcoProper Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 09 2022 at 10:07pm
Let me channel my inner Jet for a second and use the New stat ((Room For Improvement)) or RFI.  If with 4 qualifiers they (SW) claimed 65% of possible medals in 2022 then they have room to grow without getting crazy with new alignments.  They only maxed out in 2 of the weight classes. 

They have not proven that dudes left out could have medaled in my eyes. 

106
2 of 4

113
1 of 4

120
3 of 4

126
3 of 4

132
2 of 4

138
2 of 4

145
3 of 4

152
3 of 4

160
3 of 4

172
4 of 4

189
2 of 4

215
4 of 4

HW
2 of 4

Originally posted by MTLeister MTLeister wrote:

Originally posted by KC1 KC1 wrote:

So i quickly looked at another individual representation sport like wrestling.  Golf uses the same formula for determining qualifiers - based on how many schools sponsoring the sport in each district yet when you look at last years results, 1/2 of the top 10 finishers in boys and girls AAA tournaments were from District 1 schools.  I guess they should start clamoring for more qualifiers now too.  

No one knows if any of these proposed changes will get approved, but this is something I thought of right away when I heard about the proposed change to qualifiers.  None of the PIAA sports have any kind of "quality" qualification for states based on previous years results.  Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad but it would be brand new territory for the PIAA.  I read that some on the committee mentioned sports like track and swimming that have a set number of qualifiers per District plus you can qualify if you hit certain times/distances/etc but that's not the same as what they are proposing here.  Comparing that to wrestling would be like saying each region gets 3 per weight but then anyone with 40 wins and less than 6 losses qualifies too.

Anyway, if they do approve this for wrestling, you are absolutely correct... other sports will start asking for it right away.

These proposed changes are clearly due to District 7 losing a state qualifier in AAA based on number of schools (they had a bunch of schools drop to AA). I also saw somewhere that the proposal would mean the SW AA region would go from 6 to 5 qualifiers...and they gain a bunch of schools in this cycle.  While it may benefit D7 AAA in wrestling, it could hurt them in other sports.  I'd be curious to find out which Districts at the PIAA level are in full support of this and which are against it.

My gut instinct says they won't approve the state qualifiers proposal for this season but could revisit it later for future years.  On going to 4 classes for team states, I can't get a read on if that'll pass or not.


Edited by DelcoProper - Apr 09 2022 at 10:08pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote KC1 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 10 2022 at 6:19pm
the SE5s won 10 matches at states this year.  none medaled but they weren't all 0-2 by a long shot.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 10 2022 at 7:42pm
Originally posted by MTLeister MTLeister wrote:

Originally posted by KC1 KC1 wrote:

So i quickly looked at another individual representation sport like wrestling.  Golf uses the same formula for determining qualifiers - based on how many schools sponsoring the sport in each district yet when you look at last years results, 1/2 of the top 10 finishers in boys and girls AAA tournaments were from District 1 schools.  I guess they should start clamoring for more qualifiers now too.  

No one knows if any of these proposed changes will get approved, but this is something I thought of right away when I heard about the proposed change to qualifiers.  None of the PIAA sports have any kind of "quality" qualification for states based on previous years results.  Maybe it's good, maybe it's bad but it would be brand new territory for the PIAA.  I read that some on the committee mentioned sports like track and swimming that have a set number of qualifiers per District plus you can qualify if you hit certain times/distances/etc but that's not the same as what they are proposing here.  Comparing that to wrestling would be like saying each region gets 3 per weight but then anyone with 40 wins and less than 6 losses qualifies too.

Anyway, if they do approve this for wrestling, you are absolutely correct... other sports will start asking for it right away.

These proposed changes are clearly due to District 7 losing a state qualifier in AAA based on number of schools (they had a bunch of schools drop to AA). I also saw somewhere that the proposal would mean the SW AA region would go from 6 to 5 qualifiers...and they gain a bunch of schools in this cycle.  While it may benefit D7 AAA in wrestling, it could hurt them in other sports.  I'd be curious to find out which Districts at the PIAA level are in full support of this and which are against it.

My gut instinct says they won't approve the state qualifiers proposal for this season but could revisit it later for future years.  On going to 4 classes for team states, I can't get a read on if that'll pass or not.
 
How is the four team classifications and two individual going to work? (I love the idea and hope it passes)
 
I.E. Can a team that elects to move up for individuals still wrestle at their appropriate team classification? Waynesburg Central has been electing to move up since the classifications started. Can they do AAA individuals and A/AA team?  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Apr 11 2022 at 7:38am
Originally posted by Dodfan Dodfan wrote:

 
How is the four team classifications and two individual going to work? (I love the idea and hope it passes)
 
I.E. Can a team that elects to move up for individuals still wrestle at their appropriate team classification? Waynesburg Central has been electing to move up since the classifications started. Can they do AAA individuals and A/AA team?  

Honestly, not sure how that would work.  I don't know if an explanation on that (and many other things like number of qualifiers, scheduling, etc) is part of the proposal.  If/when I get any more details, I'll share them.
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