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Montco Board of Health - Disappointing

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    Posted: Nov 13 2020 at 12:21pm
Well, looks like the Montco Board of Health is working overtime to cover their butts.  Requiring all Montgomery County schools public to go all virtual 11/23-12/6.
Obviously this will delay the start of the wrestling season.  Who knows now when it will start, if it even does.

Seriously disappointed in this decision today after overwhelming response on yesterday's call to keep the schools open.  
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What do you want the Board of Health to do??  It's a pandemic and this is kinda their job to make decisions like this. 

With the numbers skyrocketing now worse than it was in the spring/summer, something has to be done.

Wrestling was already going to be delayed anyway. Most leagues have said they will be starting later than normal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote oldcougar Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 13 2020 at 2:42pm
monkeyBoy is of course correct.
This is difficult for everyone. But contrarians (like wrestlinggeek?) object to every attempt to bring this thing under control. Many people refuse to wear masks. And they refuse to socially distance themselves from others. And they gather in large groups, go to restaurants and other indoor events. It seems to be a point of honor among many Americans to refuse to use common sense. I guess such sense isn't so common, is it?  It's well established how to deal with this pandemic. New Zealand, South Korea, many other nations grabbed the bull by the horns and took control from the beginning. But in America, we are independent! We can't be ordered to act intelligently. And many people choose instead to act like idiots. And they brag that they are defending their freedoms!  What a load of crap. 240,000 dead already and we could reach half a million by early next year.
 
Is wrestling more important than the lives of our kids?
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Originally posted by oldcougar oldcougar wrote:

monkeyBoy is of course correct.
This is difficult for everyone. But contrarians (like wrestlinggeek?) object to every attempt to bring this thing under control. Many people refuse to wear masks. And they refuse to socially distance themselves from others. And they gather in large groups, go to restaurants and other indoor events. It seems to be a point of honor among many Americans to refuse to use common sense. I guess such sense isn't so common, is it?  It's well established how to deal with this pandemic. New Zealand, South Korea, many other nations grabbed the bull by the horns and took control from the beginning. But in America, we are independent! We can't be ordered to act intelligently. And many people choose instead to act like idiots. And they brag that they are defending their freedoms!  What a load of crap. 240,000 dead already and we could reach half a million by early next year.
 
Is wrestling more important than the lives of our kids?
 
I wear a mask every time I'm in public. My parents refuse to leave their house. I get it, this is bad.
 
Having said that, your last line is a little bit of gaslighting. A child that gets COVID has a 99.9999999 plus percent chance of survival. A 15-19 year old male in ideal physical condition (i.e. a wrestler) is very likely to have zero symptoms. I'm not saying they can't spread it.
 
Also, I am the furthest thing from a doctor, I'm just going off what I've learned about it.
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Originally posted by Dodfan Dodfan wrote:

 
I wear a mask every time I'm in public. My parents refuse to leave their house. I get it, this is bad.
 
Having said that, your last line is a little bit of gaslighting. A child that gets COVID has a 99.9999999 plus percent chance of survival. A 15-19 year old male in ideal physical condition (i.e. a wrestler) is very likely to have zero symptoms. I'm not saying they can't spread it.
 
Also, I am the furthest thing from a doctor, I'm just going off what I've learned about it.

The whole reason to cut back (or stop) sports for the time being is to prevent the spread of the virus. Same thing for the reason for virtual learning instead of being in the classroom. Even if it's not "as bad" for kids as it is for other people, kids contribute to the spread which makes it worse for those that are at higher risk.

We've been just doing a terrible job preventing the spread in this country.  I get it that people are "sick and tired" of hearing about it but it's not going anyway anytime soon.


Edited by MTLeister - Nov 13 2020 at 3:32pm
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Originally posted by MTLeister MTLeister wrote:

[QUOTE= ""Even if it's not "as bad" for kids as it is for other people, kids contribute to the spread which makes it worse for those that are at higher risk. 

  - "At higher risk" of what, contracting the virus? Dying "with" the virus? Dying "from" the virus? Dying due to comorbidities along with presence of virus? How does it( the spread) "make it worse" ? For the majority of people who contract C-19 and don't need hospital care,  how much worse than the seasonal flu will it be or has it been?  We have identified those at higher risk, and if our goal is to prevent those people "at higher risk"  from contracting and perhaps dying with/from the virus, why not simply isolate and protect them? That is doable and no doubt difficult. But if our goal is to prevent the "spread" of C-19 amongst the general population as some seem to desire, Good luck with that- it ain't gonna happen. The virus will spread until herd immunity is achieved,  the virus mutates into a more benign form and we all carry the virus asymptomatically via natural herd immunity or vaccines.    But hey, I'm no doctor, just a weeeeeeeeee bit skeptical that the choice before us is between wrestling and the lives of our kids. 

 
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We get it AHOR, you don't believe in "science" or what anyone else "says" (did I use the quotes there correctly?).  Thanks for the reminder.

I guess since you said we can't stop or slow the spread, we should just give up!  And I didn't realize all high risk people have been identified.  That's fantastic news!

Some of us not only believe in science and reality, but we also care about others.  So apologies if you are offended by anyone who speaks against your beliefs.  You are in my thoughts and prayers.
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Originally posted by ancienthatteroldram ancienthatteroldram wrote:

Originally posted by MTLeister MTLeister wrote:

[QUOTE= ""Even if it's not "as bad" for kids as it is for other people, kids contribute to the spread which makes it worse for those that are at higher risk. 

  - "At higher risk" of what, contracting the virus? Dying "with" the virus? Dying "from" the virus? Dying due to comorbidities along with presence of virus? How does it( the spread) "make it worse" ? For the majority of people who contract C-19 and don't need hospital care,  how much worse than the seasonal flu will it be or has it been?  We have identified those at higher risk, and if our goal is to prevent those people "at higher risk"  from contracting and perhaps dying with/from the virus, why not simply isolate and protect them? That is doable and no doubt difficult. But if our goal is to prevent the "spread" of C-19 amongst the general population as some seem to desire, Good luck with that- it ain't gonna happen. The virus will spread until herd immunity is achieved,  the virus mutates into a more benign form and we all carry the virus asymptomatically via natural herd immunity or vaccines.    But hey, I'm no doctor, just a weeeeeeeeee bit skeptical that the choice before us is between wrestling and the lives of our kids. 


AHOR

No wonder you are right about D1 decline in wrestling. 
Obviously all their fans and wrestlers are to busy locked in the basement watching to much TV. 
 


Edited by SUUUUP - Nov 13 2020 at 9:55pm
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At some point, folks that like to say “ it is no worse than the flu “   may want to check the numbers....this article mentions average flu years in the 20-30k range.....  We are staring at a few hundred thousand. We live in a country that did not get its act together, for debatable reasons, but this is the largest health crisis in my lifetime. It are not the flu.  



Edited by lbdoinit - Nov 13 2020 at 10:13pm
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Originally posted by monkeyBoy monkeyBoy wrote:

We get it AHOR, you don't believe in "science" or what anyone else "says" (did I use the quotes there correctly?).  Thanks for the reminder.

I guess since you said we can't stop or slow the spread, we should just give up!  And I didn't realize all high risk people have been identified.  That's fantastic news!

Some of us not only believe in science and reality, but we also care about others.  So apologies if you are offended by anyone who speaks against your beliefs.  You are in my thoughts and prayers.

My friend: your personal attacks, insinuations and distortions of what I have written, are simply beyond the pale.
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It’s the hypocrisy that gets me. It’s ok for elected leaders and protesters to gather and “peacefully protest” but it’s not ok to go to church, stand at a bar, go to a funeral or have thanksgiving with family.  Masks are useless as evidenced by other countries that have instituted mask mandates only to see numbers rise.  Why are we so worried about the number of positive cases if the number of hospitalizations is still low.  I mean, wasn’t that what the original shutdown was for?  To make sure hospitals didn’t get overwhelmed?  And that was no where close to happening.  I’m not sure why some of you refuse to see masks for what they are.  A form of control. As I stated in previous posts.  Never in this country have masks been mandated for the flu.  The flu is different from covid?  It’s spread the same way, infects and affects the young to a greater degree.  Explain to me how not wearing masks is ok for 30k-60k flu deaths a year, but somehow mandated for corona with now 200k+ deaths. People need to start thinking logically about this.  Some of you just go along with what the govt tells you instead of using critical thinking.  
Shutting down schools for the next 2 weeks is the wrong decision and it’s doing more irreparable harm to our kids again.  Just like in the spring when schools were shuttered. Corona is not going away.  So tell me how long are we supposed to live in fear of it rather than learn to adapt to it?
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1. wrestlinggeek comments that he is seriously disappointed schools might be shut down due to C-19

2. oldcougar responds by calling the geek a "contrarian" who objects to every attempt to bring this thing under control. He links the geek with those who refuse to wear a mask, refuse to socially distance, go to indoor events and eat at restaurants. Geek's initial post does not advocate, nor makes mention of such things. Rather than addressing the concern of those troubled by the efficacy of methods used to bring the virus under control, oc attacks the "intelligence" and lack of "common sense" of those who question the current common wisdom. 

3. Dodfan points out that 15-19 year olds are likely to have(exhibit) zero C-19 symptoms and have a 99.999% chance of survival if they do contact the virus, but may nevertheless spread the virus.

4. MTLeister chimes in that even if C-19 is not bad for kids, the kids can spread it and make it worse for those at higher risk.

5. I respond by noting that we know who the high risk are- the elderly over 70, the obese and those with underlying health issues. I ask what specifically does it mean to make it worse? I suggest that we concentrate on isolating those at high risk from those who might spread the virus.  Why attempt to isolate those who are asymptomatic? Why cause economic and social hardship for those who will suffer only mild but no doubt unpleasant  flu like symptoms if they in fact contract C-19? 

6. monkeyBoy responds with cheap character assassination. 


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WOW!  Cheap character assassination?!  You spout lie after lie after lie and say that about me?  That's rich!

I said a few weeks ago I was done, so I apologize for letting you bring me back into this insane discussion.  If you want to believe everything you read on Breitbart or hear on Fox and OANN, go for it.  Live in your precious little bubble of alternate facts where everything you do is perfect and no one else can convince you otherwise.

This forum has gone downhill over the last few years. Less and less good wrestling talk anymore.  Now it's just old guys complaining about how things aren't like they used to be or how they want them to be.  I'm out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2020 at 8:02am
ancienthatteroldram, you asked about why attempt to isolate those who are asymptomatic?  It's because even if you are asymptomatic you can transmit the virus.  That's not an opinion, that's a scientifically proven fact.  So that's why you do it. 
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Mr. Leister:  No one disputes that the asymptomatic are able to transmit this or any other virus. That is not the issue at all.  The issue is should one isolate the asymptomatic  along with those least likely to require hospital care and perhaps die as a result of complications(comorbidities) due to the virus? Or should we on the other hand, make every effort to isolate and protect those most susceptible to, and/or showing symptoms of this particular virus. To advocate that we isolate the asymptomatic is tantamount to saying we should isolate those who show no symptoms of an illness, in this case, virtually the entire population. How pray tell does one isolate a thing which one can not detect nor shows signs of its' presence ? That type of response amounts to the exact opposite of how we have traditionally fought and overcome pandemics and plagues,- that is by isolating those that show symptoms of whatever virus may be about. 
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I hope this virus doesn't mutate and create zombies because I don't have enough ammo stored.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2020 at 2:30pm
Originally posted by cbal24 cbal24 wrote:

I hope this virus doesn't mutate and create zombies because I don't have enough ammo stored.

Too late.
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Originally posted by ancienthatteroldram ancienthatteroldram wrote:

Mr. Leister:  No one disputes that the asymptomatic are able to transmit this or any other virus. That is not the issue at all.  The issue is should one isolate the asymptomatic  along with those least likely to require hospital care and perhaps die as a result of complications(comorbidities) due to the virus? Or should we on the other hand, make every effort to isolate and protect those most susceptible to, and/or showing symptoms of this particular virus. To advocate that we isolate the asymptomatic is tantamount to saying we should isolate those who show no symptoms of an illness, in this case, virtually the entire population. How pray tell does one isolate a thing which one can not detect nor shows signs of its' presence ? That type of response amounts to the exact opposite of how we have traditionally fought and overcome pandemics and plagues,- that is by isolating those that show symptoms of whatever virus may be about. 

Anyone you TESTS positive or was around someone positive needs to isolate/quarantine.  I know society doesn't agree about much these days but I think that's one thing we all can agree on.  Just being asymptomatic isn't enough.  I'm asymptomatic with regards to COVID-19, but do I have to self-isolate?  Well no, only if I have tested positive.  The biggest problem in this country (IMHO) is a lack of testing.  When you test people, you know where the virus is.  That's incredibly important for something so contagious as this.  Since so few people are actually being tested, we don't know where it is... so we can't properly quarantine to slow and/or stop the spread.  Infectious disease experts have been saying testing is the key forever about viruses like this one.

As far as those who are more prone to the deadly consequences of this virus... yes, they should be more selective about when they go out in public, and I know many, many people like that who are.  I have a bunch of relatives who are in the group that I haven't seen since March (ones I would see at least once a month).  But we don't know everyone who's at high risk.  I could be at high risk, but I don't know.  I could have a serious heart condition that hasn't been diagnosed yet.  So while it's easy to tell those who are at high risk to stay home (most I believe are...), that still won't be enough.

You asked this question = "How pray tell does one isolate a thing which one can not detect nor shows signs of its' presence ?"

The answer is, we most certainly CAN detect it... it's called testing.  You have heard of that, correct? We need more testing to be available.  That's how other countries who handled this way better than we did have done it.  If you want to look at pro and college sports and say "see, they are doing ok" it's because they are testing several times a week.  They have the money/resources to handle that task, while most virtually all school districts simply don't.  Even with that scale of testing and a lot of self quarantining, you see lots of cancelled games still at the college level and even some in the pros.  But at least they are testing people frequently.

There's no reason why I shouldn't be able to drive to the office and get tested 2 or 3 times a week.  If I'm negative, I can go to my desk.  If I'm positive, I go home and quarantine for 2 weeks.  But that system just doesn't exist right now.  I have absolutely no idea if I have or had this virus, that I could have passed to my parents, my grandmother, my friends with health issues, or anyone else I happen to walk past in the grocery store.

When people complain about health departments and experts saying we need to go back to remote learning for schools... I understand the frustration.  I have been out of school for many years now (more than I care to admit, that's for sure), but I do know that I would have much preferred to be IN the classroom that stuck at home staring at a screen all day.  (I do enough of that now for my job.)  But it's clearly the smart move to make, if you take EVERYONE'S health and safety into consideration.  All it takes is a couple of kids in a school to be positive (and not know it) before lots of kids get the virus and then take it home to parents and siblings.  If we had easily accessible testing, kids could go back to school, I could go back to work in the office, and many other people would be able to go back to some kind of "normal" again.  But without testing, that's just not going to happen.  And honestly, I still can't believe we have to have this discussion after 8 months of the pandemic upending our normal lives.  But here we are.

If you disagree with what I said, then I'm sorry. We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Nov 14 2020 at 8:05pm
Mike: Are you advocating and claiming that we have the infrastructure to test 350 million people "2 or 3 times a week"  for a virus that appears to have an infection mortality rate for those with preexisting health conditions over 75years old  of 1 to 2% ?
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I think it is very short-sighted to just look at mortality rates for Covid-19 for those over 75 years old.  

Covid-19 is not just about the mortality rate for the elderly.  The more we learn about the disease, the more we learn about the short-term effects, and in a few years we'll learn more about the long-term effects for anyone with Covid-19.  

Yes, it is very sad for athletes to lose a season due to Covid-19.  But in any given year way too many  athletes lose a season due to injury, grades, lost interest, family issues, and personal issues.  Life is full of disappointments.  But life does go on. 

And just because "a virus that appears to have an infection mortality rate for those with preexisting health conditions over 75years old  of 1 to 2%" doesn't mean this isn't a nasty virus with long-term implications for the population as a whole.  There have been 11 million+ Covid-19 cases to date and the number is currently growing at 150,000+ a day the past couple days.

It's always best to do something right the first time.  And we as a nation didn't get it right the first time.  Now we are being given a second chance, and given the mind-set of too many people, it looks like we're not going to get it right the second time around.  Fortunately there may be vaccine relief as we enter 2021.  

And if you can't test the population (as the current Administration says we can, but would like us to test less since the virus grows in numbers the more you test), you need to take the next steps that will protect the population as a whole.  Funny (actually sad) how states like North Dakota who blew off mask mandates, curfews, business restrictions/limitations, stay at home measures, are now implementing them due to an exponential increase in Covid-19 cases.  They had the blue-print as how to keep the virus in check, but they thumbed their noses at it, and after the virus began to overwhelm them they are just now taking precautions.  I guess we should look at the positive and say at least they are now doing something.

Just some things to consider from Mayo Clinic when thinking it just kills the elderly at a mortality rate at a mere 1 to 2%.
===============================================

Organ damage caused by COVID-19

Organs that may be affected by COVID-19 include:

  • Heart. Imaging tests taken months after recovery from COVID-19 have shown lasting damage to the heart muscle, even in people who experienced only mild COVID-19 symptoms. This may increase the risk of heart failure or other heart complications in the future.
  • Lungs. The type of pneumonia often associated with COVID-19 can cause long-standing damage to the tiny air sacs (alveoli) in the lungs. The resulting scar tissue can lead to long-term breathing problems.
  • Brain. Even in young people, COVID-19 can cause strokes, seizures and Guillain-Barre syndrome — a condition that causes temporary paralysis. COVID-19 may also increase the risk of developing Parkinson's disease and Alzheimer's disease.

Blood clots and blood vessel problems

COVID-19 can make blood cells more likely to clump up and form clots. While large clots can cause heart attacks and strokes, much of the heart damage caused by COVID-19 is believed to stem from very small clots that block tiny blood vessels (capillaries) in the heart muscle.

Other organs affected by blood clots include the lungs, legs, liver and kidneys. COVID-19 can also weaken blood vessels, which contributes to potentially long-lasting problems with the liver and kidneys.

Problems with mood and fatigue

People who have severe symptoms of COVID-19 often have to be treated in a hospital's intensive care unit, with mechanical assistance such as ventilators to breathe. Simply surviving this experience can make a person more likely to later develop post-traumatic stress syndrome, depression and anxiety.

Because it's difficult to predict long-term outcomes from the new COVID-19 virus, scientists are looking at the long-term effects seen in related viruses, such as severe acute respiratory syndrome (SARS).

Many people who have recovered from SARS have gone on to develop chronic fatigue syndrome, a complex disorder characterized by extreme fatigue that worsens with physical or mental activity, but doesn't improve with rest. The same may be true for people who have had COVID-19.

Many long-term COVID-19 effects still unknown

Much is still unknown about how COVID-19 will affect people over time. However, researchers recommend that doctors closely monitor people who have had COVID-19 to see how their organs are functioning after recovery.

It's important to remember that most people who have COVID-19 recover quickly. But the potentially long-lasting problems from COVID-19 make it even more important to reduce the spread of the disease by following precautions such as wearing masks, avoiding crowds and keeping hands clean.

===============================================

>>>  And IMHO, I think the season should be pushed back to Spring.  Maybe by then we can conduct testing at the needed levels to keep things open, and maybe vaccination will have begun.  Sometimes adults have to act like adults and make adult decisions.



Edited by KevinK76 - Nov 15 2020 at 12:10am
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