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Berwyn View Drop Down
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    Posted: Sep 11 2017 at 2:24pm
Anybody go?
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cbal24 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cbal24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2017 at 2:59pm
Yes...  Once again, there was some excellent wrestling and match-ups that you won't see during the HS dual meet season.  This is one of the best off-season dual tournaments around.  I'm surprised that more people don't attend because the wrestling quality keeps getting better each year.
Win or lose, do it with class!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2017 at 3:07pm
Agree with Cbal24 good competition and Jamie and the Oxford crew always does a great job. Also fun to watch kids wrestling on the same team and cheering each other on who during the regular season are competing with each other.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berwyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2017 at 3:08pm
Thanks for the update cbal24 I was surprised there wasn't more chatter on this site.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote tilt42or3 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 11 2017 at 5:46pm
Are there results posted anywhere?
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charles View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2017 at 7:48am
How bout some highlights for those who didn't make it?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cbal24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2017 at 10:24am
http://www.owrestling.org/waterwayduals.html
They'll post the results to the above website.  Not sure how long it will take.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2017 at 12:28pm
Escape the Rock recap for Waterway can be found here:


Some D1 results are listed.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote C Mart Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2017 at 6:54pm
Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:

Escape the Rock recap for Waterway can be found here:


Some D1 results are listed.

Thanks Dice,   What's the prognosis on Gerrit  Nijenhuis?     


Edited by C Mart - Sep 12 2017 at 6:55pm
I started out with nothing and still have most of it left.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2017 at 7:19pm
Originally posted by C Mart C Mart wrote:


Thanks Dice,   What's the prognosis on Gerrit  Nijenhuis?     

Still unsure as they are having an MRI today I believe, but better than it initially looked.  Got a text yesterday from his parents that said his X-Ray was clean and swelling had gone down substantially.

He got into a scramble with Nichter in the first 30 seconds where both kids were face-to-foot.  Knee got twisted up.  Last thing you want to see at a preseason event like this.  Kid is really talented and hopefully it ends up being minor.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 12 2017 at 7:49pm
Couple of things - not all D1 - that you may find interesting from what I saw - basically just the ETR matches and a couple of matches for our extra kids that we lent to other teams:

Ryan Crookham, son of a former Neshaminy wrestler (same name), is a heralded 8th grader and the real deal.  Best 106lber there.  Lives in Saucon Valley SD, could be headed there, BECA or Blair.

Kyle Waterman of CR South - was behind Max Mendez last year.  Now a full size 106 and will be very good.  Undefeated on the day, 6-0, including exhibition matches, wasn't really even tested.  Crookham, Waterman and a kid from NY, Troy Spratley were the best 106s I saw there.

Luke Lucerne looked very good early including a 2-0 win over Killian Delaney.  Got horsed in his 3rd and 4th matches by Cam Enriquez and Hanson-Ashworth, who both were monsters at the weight there.  I'm thinking he is 115 for postseason and will be even better this year.

Hanson-Ashworth looks great and if he is at 115 postseason, as I have heard he may be, CRS could crown their 10th state champion.  Even at 122 I wouldn't be surprised.

Kenny Herrmann of BECA looked great there - will be climbing the podium this year.  Won a great match against a 2x NY state placer, demolished Seth Hoopes, was in control of the match as he beat former PA 3rd Rohrbaugh, and lost a tight one to Sean Pierson.

AJ Tamburrino looks much improved - really good on his feet with very clean finishes for a HS kid and really tough on top.  Looks like he will be at 132 again this year and should be on the podium.  Really controlled Caden Mareno - who is very good - after giving up an early TD.  Kid couldn't be any nicer as well, really somebody you can root for regardless of your home school.

Pat Gould, East Stroudsburg South, wrestled 138 there this weekend and looked like he was wrestling with about 10 extra pounds.  Still looked phenomenal.  He has had some great wins in his career and some head-scratching losses, but the kid can really wrestle.  I would not be surprised at him beating anyone in the state.

Another BECA kid, Luca Frinzi, also looked very good.  Doesn't look like your typical 152 - lanky and not strong looking - but really knows how to wrestle.  Probably a little outsized at Waterway.

Angel Garcia, a BTS kid from Marianna Bracetti, is going to make some noise this year as a sophomore.  Very tough kid, very good on his feet, really athletic.  Looks like he has put some serious time in this offseason and really improved.

Nijenhuis is a beast.  Dominated everybody that got on the mat with him.  Only a sophomore, would not be surprised to see him at the top of the podium this year.

Speaking of beasts, a Jersey kid you probably never heard of, Jacob Cardenas, is about to become a national name.  Went to Queen of Peace for two years, they closed the school this spring, will now wrestle for Bergen Catholic.  I had him last year as our 171 as a string-bean sophomore and he did well and was competitive against some kids who were much more mature body-wise than him at Waterway last year.  This year he showed up looking like he packed on 20lbs of muscle.  Controlled the entire match in a 6-3 win against Fargo All-American Darrien Roberts of Wyoming Seminary and then faced PA state runnerup Dalton Group in the final.  Took him down, cradled him up and sent him packing in about 30 seconds.  Tremendous kid as well.

This may not be a popular comment as I know there are many here and around the state that are anti-BECA.  One thing I have noticed in the past and, was reinforced for me yesterday, is that their kids are extremely respectful and well-mannered in addition to knowing how to wrestle.  Likewise for their families - very nice people all-around.  They must be doing something right up there, it's not all just recruiting.  These kids come from an area which can be rough-and-tumble at times and I can see the appeal of competing for a squad made up of kids and families like this.  I can only think of one family to date that did not really fit that mold and they were out of there quickly.


Edited by dicemen99 - Sep 12 2017 at 8:03pm
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Berwyn View Drop Down
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Thanks for the breakdown dicemen99.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 11:24am
Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:


Hanson-Ashworth looks great and if he is at 115 postseason, as I have heard he may be, CRS could crown their 10th state champion.  Even at 122 I wouldn't be surprised.



I'm guessing that you assuming Hillegas won't be at either of those weight classes. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 11:26am
Originally posted by Dodfan Dodfan wrote:

Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:


Hanson-Ashworth looks great and if he is at 115 postseason, as I have heard he may be, CRS could crown their 10th state champion.  Even at 122 I wouldn't be surprised.



I'm guessing that you assuming Hillegas won't be at either of those weight classes. 

Hillegas was pretty large last year and it would not surprise me to see him at 126 this year.  But that is just a total guess.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 11:37am
He's entered at Super 32 at 126 (last I saw). I bet he drops to 120 come post season if either Chlebove and/or Jersey Boy is at 126. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 2:08pm
Dice going to predict the old weight classes would look pretty good for CRS again this year? Hanson will create a bigger log jam in the light weights pushing somebody up or down or out based upon all the talent at CRS in light and middle weights?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 2:39pm
Originally posted by PintoWin PintoWin wrote:

Dice going to predict the old weight classes would look pretty good for CRS again this year? Hanson will create a bigger log jam in the light weights pushing somebody up or down or out based upon all the talent at CRS in light and middle weights?

The old weights ALWAYS looked better for CRS even when we were debating them from opposite sides of the fence.

Not sure that there will be a log jam in the middle light weights as Hanson looks like he may be lighter than expected and Radner probably heavier than expected.  Maybe a log jam at the lowest weight come postseason, but I don't think anyone is really on board with having more sub-110 weight classes.  During the dual meet season, I think CRS' lineup will work just fine.

Guessing it will end up something like this for duals:

106 - Waterman, SO
113 - Mendez, JR
120 - Hanson-Ashworth, JR
126 - Ricchini, JR/Waterman SR
132 - McKinney, SR/Radner, SR
138 - McKinney, SR/Radner, SR
145 - Woloshyn, JR
152 - Kahn, JR
160 - Flanagan, SO
170 or 182 - Korbich, JR
182 or 195 - Gilch, SO
285 - Anderson, JR

Probably Mignacca in there at the weight left open by Korbich/Gilch.  Or maybe bumping up Hanson some times and the rest of the lineup.  Maybe Weinstein at 220 - not sure.  Looks to be a pretty good lineup for the next couple years.


Edited by dicemen99 - Sep 13 2017 at 3:40pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 3:58pm
Dice
Lineup looks solid / but I think it is similar to most D1 rosters / setting ability aside. Also looks like someone good in the middle will be left out of post season and we are in agreement with not adding a sub 110 weight class. Don't want to debate the weight classes since they changed so long ago but curious for your thoughts on the following;
 
1. Would you be in favor of multiple entries (Need a system) for post season from one team? Similar to track and swimming
 
2. Do you think todays weight classes have helped grow the sport or is it still in neutral / decline?
 
Yeah number two is debating but we have done this before / plus its preseason
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 13 2017 at 5:07pm
Originally posted by PintoWin PintoWin wrote:

Dice
Lineup looks solid / but I think it is similar to most D1 rosters / setting ability aside. Also looks like someone good in the middle will be left out of post season and we are in agreement with not adding a sub 110 weight class. Don't want to debate the weight classes since they changed so long ago but curious for your thoughts on the following;
 
1. Would you be in favor of multiple entries (Need a system) for post season from one team? Similar to track and swimming
 
2. Do you think todays weight classes have helped grow the sport or is it still in neutral / decline?
 
Yeah number two is debating but we have done this before / plus its preseason
 

#1.  Yes.  System would have to limit the amount per team (3?) and the amount per each weight class (IDK, 3 or 4) for the tournament.  If the limits were 3/4, that would add 24 wrestlers to an 8 team section, with no more than 12 wrestlers in a bracket.  Kids would fill out the weight classes according to seeding points, i.e. if you are the alternate with the fifth most seeding points at 145 and the limit is four, you don't get in.  To prevent coaches from gaming the system, if you put an alternate forward with more seeding points than your starter (maybe an injured kid who won the spot at the end of the year), his seeding points are capped at the starters.  I guess you would have to monkey around with it for District XI, but it can be done.

The above example would add about an hour and a half to an 8 team section tournament and in reality, probably less.  Really, I think the only thing that the above would require would be the PIAA to allow multi-entries for a tournament (some state feds already do, although I'm not sure for postseason) and then let the districts deal with it however they see fit.

I could see some coaches not being entirely on board with this as it may make their life more difficult, but I would point out that I don't see many football coaches complaining that they have to make the decision on who to start. May also be some complaints about the "complicated" process of selection, but it would take one guy who knows what he is doing about 15 minutes to figure out all the extra kids that made it in to the tournament.

I did this on the fly, so there is probably a gaping hole that I forgot about.  Please feel free to point it out.

2)  I don't think it has had a major impact in either direction.  I haven't seen any forfeit numbers, but my general sense is that there are more forfeits every year.  But there were more every year before the weight change, so really the only measure would be if the rate was slowing or increasing.  No idea.  My original position - which remains the same - is that the weights give coaches more flexibility to NOT forfeit and to put more kids on the mat.  Teams like CRS and OJR are going to fill their lineups - it's not meant to impact participation there.  If CRS doesn't have anyone for 220 (unlikely), they can just wrestle Gianni Gilch there for duals and bump kids up - the kids still get out on the mat.  Same for OJR.  I think they were more designed for teams that don't have the luxury of a full room - which is a lot of teams.
I understand, your, mine and most everyone that is a wrestling fan looks at its impact on the postseason.  We all want our kids to compete at their optimum weights.  My position has always been that if your 3 best kids optimal weights are 135, 135, and 138, the NFHS really doesn't care if they go out and compete in the postseason at 138, 145 and 152 and your 145 and 152 battle it out for 160.  It's the same number of kids on the mat.  And in theory the kid who weighs 174 and wrestles at 195 for Smallville HS makes it one more kid.  
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2017 at 11:34am
Dice
 
I think that opportunity to wrestle post season is a big factor in kids wrestling / just like the opportunity to wrestle varsity - sport is too hard to just practice and get a few JV matches if you are lucky, we are on same page with multiple entries per weight class and I am not smart enough to figure out the details but its simple math more spots in post season equate to more kids wrestling.
 
I also agree with you about todays weights have had no real impact on numbers one way or the other, they do however continue to have an impact on the style and quality of wrestling in most programs also coaches still having to work too hard to find the bigger guys and the little 106 - 113 lbers. That's why I never understood cutting a middle weight, but you said it well the NFHS doesn't really care about where kids compete or the quality of what is on the mat. 
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