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dicemen99 View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2017 at 11:55am
Originally posted by PintoWin PintoWin wrote:

Dice
 
I think that opportunity to wrestle post season is a big factor in kids wrestling / just like the opportunity to wrestle varsity - sport is too hard to just practice and get a few JV matches if you are lucky, we are on same page with multiple entries per weight class and I am not smart enough to figure out the details but its simple math more spots in post season equate to more kids wrestling.
 
I also agree with you about todays weights have had no real impact on numbers one way or the other, they do however continue to have an impact on the style and quality of wrestling in most programs also coaches still having to work too hard to find the bigger guys and the little 106 - 113 lbers. That's why I never understood cutting a middle weight, but you said it well the NFHS doesn't really care about where kids compete or the quality of what is on the mat. 

Well said.  PintoWin and Dice in complete agreement. Let's talk some more lineups.  I expect OJR to be tough.  I've got:

113 - Forrest, SO
120 - Shanahan, JR
126 - McCutcheon, SR/Leister, SO
132 - McCutcheon, SR/Leister, SO
138 - Petro, SO
145 - Meredith, JR
152 - Mancini, JR 
160 - McCutcheon, JR
170 - Zollers, SR

Fill me in on what you think and any newcomers we should be aware of.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monsoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 14 2017 at 9:37pm
http://www.owrestling.org/Water_Way_Duals_2017.pdf

Edited by Monsoon - Sep 14 2017 at 9:39pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2017 at 9:28am
Originally posted by dicemen99 dicemen99 wrote:


Well said.  PintoWin and Dice in complete agreement. Let's talk some more lineups.  I expect OJR to be tough.  I've got:

113 - Forrest, SO
120 - Shanahan, JR
126 - McCutcheon, SR/Leister, SO
132 - McCutcheon, SR/Leister, SO
138 - Petro, SO
145 - Meredith, JR
152 - Mancini, JR 
160 - McCutcheon, JR
170 - Zollers, SR

Fill me in on what you think and any newcomers we should be aware of.

Didn't Quinn come back from Malvern too?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote charles Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2017 at 9:31am
Downingtown West should be tough

113/20: Zapf
138: Lilley
145/52: G. Hale
170: Shafer
182: Melnick
195: M. Hale
220: Madanat
285: Cook
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2017 at 6:12pm
I think Spring Ford is the second best team after CRS. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Davejjr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 15 2017 at 7:20pm
D West is going to be hard to beat and in the PAC OJR/Methacton/SF will come down to final matchups and who wants it more. IMO
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 18 2017 at 2:10pm
Dice sorry for the delay but you are pretty accurate / added some kids below
 
113 - Forrest, SO / Dunleavy SO
120 - Shanahan, JR / Renn, SR 
126 - McCutcheon, SR/ C Quinn, SO
132 - McCutcheon / C Quinn, SO / Zack Engelhardt, JR
138 - Petro, SO / Leister, SO / Zack Engelhardt JR / Boaman, SO
145 - Meredith, JR / Boaman, SO
152 - Mancini, JR 
160 - McCutcheon, JR
170 - Zollers, SR
 
182 and up in no order or weight
 
Jake McCleoud, SR / Tommy Dempsey, SO / Nick Hagen, SO / Dylan Smith, SO / Dylan Bauer, SO
 
Should be another competitive year CRS / D WEST / SF all solid and don't leave CRN / Boyertown and Rustin out of the conversation their kids always wrestle tough. Not sure how D1 Teams stack up with the rest of the State but my guess would be that we will have a tough time placing a team in the top three.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 18 2017 at 2:49pm
Originally posted by PintoWin PintoWin wrote:

Dice sorry for the delay but you are pretty accurate / added some kids below
 
113 - Forrest, SO / Dunleavy SO
120 - Shanahan, JR / Renn, SR 
126 - McCutcheon, SR/ C Quinn, SO
132 - McCutcheon / C Quinn, SO / Zack Engelhardt, JR
138 - Petro, SO / Leister, SO / Zack Engelhardt JR / Boaman, SO
145 - Meredith, JR / Boaman, SO
152 - Mancini, JR 
160 - McCutcheon, JR
170 - Zollers, SR
 
182 and up in no order or weight
 
Jake McCleoud, SR / Tommy Dempsey, SO / Nick Hagen, SO / Dylan Smith, SO / Dylan Bauer, SO
 
Should be another competitive year CRS / D WEST / SF all solid and don't leave CRN / Boyertown and Rustin out of the conversation their kids always wrestle tough. Not sure how D1 Teams stack up with the rest of the State but my guess would be that we will have a tough time placing a team in the top three.

I think District 7 is kind of down this year compared to recent years past besides Kiski. They are outstanding. The second best team in District 7 is probably Waynesburg. 

Cathedral Prep has the best second half of a line-up in the state in my opinion. They are loaded from 152-285. 

Nazareth and BECA in the D-11 and state finals again. Go Nazareth!

I have no clue who will win District 3. Cumberland Valley and Central Dauphin will be down this year. Exeter get destroyed by graduation. I think Chambersburg is going to be pretty good. 

Just a guess before I see the weights:

1. Nazareth
2. BECA
3. Cathedral Prep
4. Kiski
5. CRS


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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 19 2017 at 10:30am
Originally posted by PintoWin PintoWin wrote:

Dice sorry for the delay but you are pretty accurate / added some kids below
 
113 - Forrest, SO / Dunleavy SO
120 - Shanahan, JR / Renn, SR 
126 - McCutcheon, SR/ C Quinn, SO
132 - McCutcheon / C Quinn, SO / Zack Engelhardt, JR
138 - Petro, SO / Leister, SO / Zack Engelhardt JR / Boaman, SO
145 - Meredith, JR / Boaman, SO
152 - Mancini, JR 
160 - McCutcheon, JR
170 - Zollers, SR
 
182 and up in no order or weight
 
Jake McCleoud, SR / Tommy Dempsey, SO / Nick Hagen, SO / Dylan Smith, SO / Dylan Bauer, SO
 
Should be another competitive year CRS / D WEST / SF all solid and don't leave CRN / Boyertown and Rustin out of the conversation their kids always wrestle tough. Not sure how D1 Teams stack up with the rest of the State but my guess would be that we will have a tough time placing a team in the top three.

Agree on CRN, they will be very tough this year, something like this for a dual team I would guess:

106 - Hauserman
113 - Keller
120 - Lucerne
126 - Thompson
132 - Hayes
138 - Robinson
145 - Shalinsky
152 - Nucero
160 - Sheehy

They have also had some young guys get experience at the upper weights in the past couple years, although they had an issue with some of those guys sticking with football and not coming out.  Not sure if they can get any of them back.  They have a decent 285 in Leyferman also.

Boyertown has lost so much over the past two years you obviously expect them to take a step back, but you are right - their kids always wrestle tough so I would expect some newcomers to wrestle better than expected and the Bears to be tough.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 19 2017 at 10:46am
Originally posted by Dodfan Dodfan wrote:


I think District 7 is kind of down this year compared to recent years past besides Kiski. They are outstanding. The second best team in District 7 is probably Waynesburg. 

Cathedral Prep has the best second half of a line-up in the state in my opinion. They are loaded from 152-285. 

Nazareth and BECA in the D-11 and state finals again. Go Nazareth!

I have no clue who will win District 3. Cumberland Valley and Central Dauphin will be down this year. Exeter get destroyed by graduation. I think Chambersburg is going to be pretty good. 

Just a guess before I see the weights:

1. Nazareth
2. BECA
3. Cathedral Prep
4. Kiski
5. CRS


Yes, Cathedral Prep has been coming on the past couple years and they have some real hammers midweights and up.  Was expecting them to add Cole Rees also this year, but recently saw he is headed to Seminary.

You are right Chambersburg will be a threat in D3 this year.  Bringing back Luke Nichter, Brenize, Cole Grove, the Runshaws and will add Tate Nichter who I saw down at Waterway and will be a medal threat as a freshman.  Not sure that they have enough up and down the lineup however to knock off CV and CD, who always have some tough kids waiting in the wings.  Lower Dauphin is an up and coming team in D3 with some nice young kids.

In DXI, I see Kassis and the Dolaks are back wrestling so that should make Parkland a lot tougher but only two get out in DXI and don't think they can challenge the top two in BECA and Nazareth.  Easton is also set to add a boatload of talented freshman this year, hopefully Billman will keep them all at home and look for them to be on the rise the next couple of years if he does.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote NCAARef Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Sep 20 2017 at 12:06pm
Dice - For something done on the fly your concept looks pretty good to me.  Of course the 900 gorilla in the room is the PIAA, who has never been known for being forward thinking.  Getting multiple participants from a school in a weight class seems like a mighty big ask from an organization like the PIAA.   Best bet would be to show the PIAA how they would make more money since the clearly don't care much about the participants, look at the schedule at Hershey.

I do think that a local in-season tournament could have the ability to allow multiple participants from a school in a weight class, particularly if you don't ask for permission.

[/QUOTE]

#1.  Yes.  System would have to limit the amount per team (3?) and the amount per each weight class (IDK, 3 or 4) for the tournament.  If the limits were 3/4, that would add 24 wrestlers to an 8 team section, with no more than 12 wrestlers in a bracket.  Kids would fill out the weight classes according to seeding points, i.e. if you are the alternate with the fifth most seeding points at 145 and the limit is four, you don't get in.  To prevent coaches from gaming the system, if you put an alternate forward with more seeding points than your starter (maybe an injured kid who won the spot at the end of the year), his seeding points are capped at the starters.  I guess you would have to monkey around with it for District XI, but it can be done.

The above example would add about an hour and a half to an 8 team section tournament and in reality, probably less.  Really, I think the only thing that the above would require would be the PIAA to allow multi-entries for a tournament (some state feds already do, although I'm not sure for postseason) and then let the districts deal with it however they see fit.

I could see some coaches not being entirely on board with this as it may make their life more difficult, but I would point out that I don't see many football coaches complaining that they have to make the decision on who to start. May also be some complaints about the "complicated" process of selection, but it would take one guy who knows what he is doing about 15 minutes to figure out all the extra kids that made it in to the tournament.

I did this on the fly, so there is probably a gaping hole that I forgot about.  Please feel free to point it out.

2)  I don't think it has had a major impact in either direction.  I haven't seen any forfeit numbers, but my general sense is that there are more forfeits every year.  But there were more every year before the weight change, so really the only measure would be if the rate was slowing or increasing.  No idea.  My original position - which remains the same - is that the weights give coaches more flexibility to NOT forfeit and to put more kids on the mat.  Teams like CRS and OJR are going to fill their lineups - it's not meant to impact participation there.  If CRS doesn't have anyone for 220 (unlikely), they can just wrestle Gianni Gilch there for duals and bump kids up - the kids still get out on the mat.  Same for OJR.  I think they were more designed for teams that don't have the luxury of a full room - which is a lot of teams.
I understand, your, mine and most everyone that is a wrestling fan looks at its impact on the postseason.  We all want our kids to compete at their optimum weights.  My position has always been that if your 3 best kids optimal weights are 135, 135, and 138, the NFHS really doesn't care if they go out and compete in the postseason at 138, 145 and 152 and your 145 and 152 battle it out for 160.  It's the same number of kids on the mat.  And in theory the kid who weighs 174 and wrestles at 195 for Smallville HS makes it one more kid.  
[/QUOTE]
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