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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 30 2019 at 8:27pm
Originally posted by Cross body Cross body wrote:

Mike, I think you’re comparing apples and oranges. One of the main reasons they’re citing for eliminating weight classes is due to the number of forfeits during dual meets. I don’t think it’s accurate to look at post season participation to determine whether or not the PIAA should get rid of 2 weight classes. (And change the lowest weight class) There are many reasons why a kid would choose not to participate in the post season. Maybe the coach convinced them to stick it out for the team. Maybe the kid wanted to try to help the team. Maybe the kid got his butt kicked all season long and decided not to do post season. (None of these reason I agree with) I do agree the numbers overall are decreasing, but to assume the numbers will increase by getting rid of 2 weight classes is asinine. By getting rid of 2 weight classes means D1 will have 8-10 fewer kids qualify for states, depending on our allocation. If you look at the state, as a whole, it’s easy to see the number of kids who participate in the post season will also drop.

My point was that while participation in dual meets is clearly dropping, it's also dropping in the post-season as well.  That just means that overall participation in the sport is dropping.  Though it's dropping in almost ALL sports, not just high school wrestling.

I don't think anyone is expecting that the total number of wrestlers (either in duals or post-season) will actually go UP if you cut 2 weight classes.  What the proposal is trying to do (in my opinion, that is) is to try to increase the percentage of filled weights.  Right now it appears that roughly 60-70% of all bouts in duals are contested.  It's about that same percentage of weights are filled in the post-season.  Going to 12 weight classes should result in fewer forfeits in duals and more complete brackets in the post-season (or more teams filling all 12 weights).  Whether or not everyone views that as a positive is certainly up for debate.

It's an interesting topic for sure, with no easy solution.  Most people have made up their minds already if it's a good idea or not.  I'm trying to find ways to see what the full scope of the existing issue is, and then figure out if it's a good idea or not.

It's like when the state brackets were expanded from 16 to 20 per weight.  Those in favor said it gave more opportunities at the state level while those against it said it watered down the competition.  Same arguments can be said with the number of weights...neither side is really wrong.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2019 at 7:07am
I have usually attended post season to watch the cream of the crop compete, - no matter the size of the bracket- never imagined that the real problem to be solved was increasing " the percentage of filled weights. "  Reading the posted articles I assumed the purpose of reducing weight classes was to reduce dual meet forfeits . Have those PIAA shrewdies devised a plan to kill two birds with one stone -who da thunk it. 

Edited by ancienthatteroldram - May 31 2019 at 7:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mctuna40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2019 at 8:05am
I think the issue is Kids specialize in sports more and more... even if you don’t want to you are almost forced to!

We are at DEHS My Daughter played FH and LAX for a few years, she loves LAX wants to play in college and is currently is on the recruiting circuit (as it is summer going into her Junior year), she plays LAX all year because she loves it. When she was playing FH in HS it was just to be on the team and be involved, she’s a very good athlete so she was good at FH with minimal effort but she clearly wasn’t as good as the students who played FH all year. 2 things happened that made her stop playing a a second sport, she was punished by the HS coach for going to a fall recruiting tournament for her club lax team, she explained to the coach that LAX was her first sport and these events are where College Coaches go see young athletes play and make decisions if you are on their recruiting radar or not... she was put on only JV. She was actually fine with it because she enjoyed playing and being with her friends and her choice is LAX 100 out of 100 times! Then she was struggling keeping her grades up and had a big test, many of the games were late at night and after JV played girls had to stay for varsity and didn’t get home until after 9Pm often... we asked the coach if we could pick her up after the JV game because she had a big test and was struggling with that coursework. The coach said I support academics BUT she needs to be here to watch and support her team, HAHA that’s very supporting. Her GPA really suffered during FH season so she decided stop playing FH in the future.

My Son has stopped all other sports except Wrestling... he played Football, LAX and wrestled. Frankie has had the most success in wrestling as a MSer and his closest friends are involved with Wrestling. The Wrestling Coaches at DE are not only good coaches but really good men! They care about the athletes and encourage them to do other sports, the Football coach never has an off season and many of the Kids feel like (their perception and mine not stated as a fact) even if Football isn’t your number one sport, you better treat it like it is at the expense of your other sports... I have heard that kids were told they would be negatively affected if they missed offseason Football things to go do offseason wrestling camps or tournaments. That intimidates a 14 year old often and the decision is not to play Football. He liked LAX a lot but really goy burnt out by the all year nature of the sport on the club side (the exact opposite of my daughter). Two different reasons to specialize but both with the same result!

It was just easier when we were younger to do multiple sports!
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Post season individual participation could be increased if they let teams have multiple entries per weight class obviously based on a specific criteria which I am not smart enough to figure out. Instead of focusing on the lack of wrestlers and FFT how do we get more kids involved who want to wrestle. I looked at roster sizes for some of the programs in D1 who have had success

 

CRS - 44

OJR - 44

SF - 32 (always a big MS program)

WCH / Rustin and EAST all over 30 wrestlers

Boyertown – 35

DTE / WEST – both over 30

CRN – 35

Quakertown – 34

 

I will guarantee you they have kids sitting at certain weights in some of the above programs (probably in the middle) who would be tough outs in the post season. In the Lehigh Valley at NH / NAZ / Beth Cath / Easton / Beth Lib there are some real tough kids on the bench that would also be tough outs in the post season, just look at the depth from that district dual meet tournament and how they did at state duals. Mike this is a tough subject but finding ways to increase participation (more opportunities for all wrestlers) instead of cutting opportunities (weight classes) to help the weaker programs compete is in my humble opinion a step closer to the grave for wrestling
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 87 grad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2019 at 10:05am
Pin I see you listing the successful programs numbers but this is not what is causing the problems with forfeits, it is the programs with 12 kids on the roster that are having trouble.  There is no clear solution to the problem but to just say keep it like it is and just tell the smaller teams to get bigger is not helping !  I'm not sure how old you are but when I was in HS there were 12 weights and the rosters were bigger then so why can't you reduce weights when numbers are smaller?  There is going to have to be some adjusting but the sport is struggling in certain areas so something has to be done right?  I would have gone from 14 to 13 instead of 12 but that's me.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2019 at 10:27am
87 Grad I am older 78 grad, I agree 13 is better than 12. But how are we helping the smaller / struggling to get numbers programs by cutting weight classes they will still be struggling to get kids out and if so will not be competitive anyway. Go proactive create more opportunities for kids to wrestle by doing things I have mentioned in my previous post, the struggling programs need help with their program before they can be competitive, who really wants to win by having less FFTS? What's next in Sports we go to 8on8 football because the numbers have dropped in certain programs.
My passion for the sport of wrestling is not in wins and losses (it is more fun to win) but what the sport does for kids in their life after wrestling is over. Society today needs this sport to teach the youth those life lessons and quite frankly put some toughness back into society and I hate to see opportunities being taken away that I cant see how the kids benefit.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote SFGdad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2019 at 11:32am
As a former lightweight wrestler, going back to the days of 95 lbs. as a Junior....AND, as a Father & Grandfather of similar lightweights (88 lbs wrestling @ 106).....someone please tell me to what sport I should tell my grandsons to focus/compete.  Football?....They played that at the youth level, did very well, but at the high school level? way too small.  Baseball?....have you seen the baseball players today?  Lacrosse?....same BIG players.  SO WHAT that there are forfeits !!  For decades, the sport of wrestling has provided the smaller-type-athlete a means to compete and NOW it is decided to eliminate that chance to experience a team atmosphere, the discipline ingrained in the sport, and the thrill of competition.  AGAIN....someone please tell me: What do I/we tell these athletes?  Spelling Bees?
Its not a game !
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote AAWarrior Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 31 2019 at 4:09pm
The only question that matters is, will this decision hurt our kids, or help our kids?

I come from a very small school district, so I will not put my two cents in on how this affects the larger programs.

Our team in Bristol, has been sending out 5 to 6 kids routinely for duals. 7 on a good day. Even with this small squad, we always seem to have JV kids somehow. We can have ten kids on the roster, but six of them always seem to be about the same weight. You can only bump kids up in weight so much. So to reduce the amount of weight classes, increasing the weight gaps while doing so, will actually hurt our kids chances of getting on the mat.

Will our team start winning duals now, with two less forfeits? Absolutely not. Will our duals conclude faster, and get the spectators home earlier? Sure......by about 30 second (the amount of time it takes to raise the opposing kids hands for forfeits). Will this help the varsity wrestlers in any way? Not that I can see.

As mush as I would love to see some closer scores in our duals, I wouldn't do it at the cost of cutting two weight classes. It does not benefit our kids at all.

If it's not helping our youth, then why are we doing it?

This is just my opinion, from my little town. I certainly am willing to discuss, educate myself, and absorb more knowledge on this topic. I might change my views on this, or I could reinforce where I currently stand. But I see it as being more detrimental then beneficial.
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Most of the arguments against eliminating a weight on this forum were due to reducing opportunities. If that is true, then wouldn't adding weight classes increase opportunities? There isn't anything special about the number 14, why not have 16 or 20? Should we be advocating for basketball and baseball to add positions to the team to increase opportunities. 

Cutting weight classes doesn't eliminate opportunities, only starting positions. Those kids still have the opportunity to be on the team and to wrestle off for the starting spot.

 
Every sport has a limited number of starting positions on the team. A basketball team only has 5 starting spots. A baseball team has 9. All those teams also have backup players and a JV team. Wrestling has the same opportunities as all other high school sports and more starting spots than most other sports. Even if the number of weight classes is cut to 12 or 13, that will still be true. For all sports including wrestling the starting spot is earned, regardless of number of weight classes.
 
 
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Originally posted by HopDevil HopDevil wrote:


Most of the arguments against eliminating a weight on this forum were due to reducing opportunities. If that is true, then wouldn't adding weight classes increase opportunities? There isn't anything special about the number 14, why not have 16 or 20? Should we be advocating for basketball and baseball to add positions to the team to increase opportunities. 

Cutting weight classes doesn't eliminate opportunities, only starting positions. Those kids still have the opportunity to be on the team and to wrestle off for the starting spot.

 
Every sport has a limited number of starting positions on the team. A basketball team only has 5 starting spots. A baseball team has 9. All those teams also have backup players and a JV team. Wrestling has the same opportunities as all other high school sports and more starting spots than most other sports. Even if the number of weight classes is cut to 12 or 13, that will still be true. For all sports including wrestling the starting spot is earned, regardless of number of weight classes.
 
 


Why not... up to 125, 126-150, 150-175, 175-200 and 201-unlimited? That would be same opportunity as Basketball and very few FFts!!!   Starting 5 and very little Weight cutting as compared to 14 weight classes.

I’ll choose 14 classes over that!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2019 at 7:11pm
Originally posted by HopDevil HopDevil wrote:

Most of the arguments against eliminating a weight on this forum were due to reducing opportunities. If that is true, then wouldn't adding weight classes increase opportunities? There isn't anything special about the number 14, why not have 16 or 20? Should we be advocating for basketball and baseball to add positions to the team to increase opportunities. 

Cutting weight classes doesn't eliminate opportunities, only starting positions. Those kids still have the opportunity to be on the team and to wrestle off for the starting spot.

 
Every sport has a limited number of starting positions on the team. A basketball team only has 5 starting spots. A baseball team has 9. All those teams also have backup players and a JV team. Wrestling has the same opportunities as all other high school sports and more starting spots than most other sports. Even if the number of weight classes is cut to 12 or 13, that will still be true. For all sports including wrestling the starting spot is earned, regardless of number of weight classes.
 
 

I was thinking the same thing the other day.  I couldn't think of a sport (outside of maybe track?) with 14 starting spots or positions.

Another thing I was thinking about...  Let's say there was a proposal to add 2 more weights to the existing 14... say 98 and 250 (or pick any 2 new weights you want).  If you knew that half (or more) of all dual meets wouldn't have a match at those weights and brackets at those weights in most tournaments wouldn't be nearly full, would you still want them to be added in order to provide more opportunities?  

Would be curious to know how many people would be in favor of that.  And how many coaches vs how many wrestlers, etc.  Would it be better for the sport?  Honestly, I don't know.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 03 2019 at 7:13pm
Originally posted by Mctuna40 Mctuna40 wrote:

Originally posted by HopDevil HopDevil wrote:


Most of the arguments against eliminating a weight on this forum were due to reducing opportunities. If that is true, then wouldn't adding weight classes increase opportunities? There isn't anything special about the number 14, why not have 16 or 20? Should we be advocating for basketball and baseball to add positions to the team to increase opportunities. 

Cutting weight classes doesn't eliminate opportunities, only starting positions. Those kids still have the opportunity to be on the team and to wrestle off for the starting spot.

 
Every sport has a limited number of starting positions on the team. A basketball team only has 5 starting spots. A baseball team has 9. All those teams also have backup players and a JV team. Wrestling has the same opportunities as all other high school sports and more starting spots than most other sports. Even if the number of weight classes is cut to 12 or 13, that will still be true. For all sports including wrestling the starting spot is earned, regardless of number of weight classes.
 
 


Why not... up to 125, 126-150, 150-175, 175-200 and 201-unlimited? That would be same opportunity as Basketball and very few FFts!!!   Starting 5 and very little Weight cutting as compared to 14 weight classes.

I’ll choose 14 classes over that!

Not sure if you are joking or not... LOL.  While I don't watch free/greco wrestling much at all, but I think 6 weights for the Olympics isn't enough.  But 14 would be too many.  It's certainly a delicate balance.  One that's almost always based on demand.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote idontknow Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 04 2019 at 2:51pm
The issue comparing almost all sports "Starting Spots" to wrestling is wrong. First of all Football has the most starting spots (22 or more when you add in starting kicker, punter ect.) and they sub in others all the time during a contest. In almost all the other sports subs are used regularly throughout 1 contest giving many more than jus the starters opportunities in every game. In track multiple people from the same team can participate based on their skill. In baseball - How many pitchers are used? Even in a sport like basketball almost all kids on the roster get to participate. So in a sport like wrestling where only the Starter gets to participate and there are so few JV opportunities - why would a athlete continue to participate when they have no shot at seeing the mat? This is the issue that needs to be addressed - not cutting weights.


But what do I know
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Mctuna40 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 06 2019 at 10:04pm
Originally posted by MTLeister MTLeister wrote:

Originally posted by Mctuna40 Mctuna40 wrote:

Originally posted by HopDevil HopDevil wrote:


Most of the arguments against eliminating a weight on this forum were due to reducing opportunities. If that is true, then wouldn't adding weight classes increase opportunities? There isn't anything special about the number 14, why not have 16 or 20? Should we be advocating for basketball and baseball to add positions to the team to increase opportunities. 

Cutting weight classes doesn't eliminate opportunities, only starting positions. Those kids still have the opportunity to be on the team and to wrestle off for the starting spot.

 
Every sport has a limited number of starting positions on the team. A basketball team only has 5 starting spots. A baseball team has 9. All those teams also have backup players and a JV team. Wrestling has the same opportunities as all other high school sports and more starting spots than most other sports. Even if the number of weight classes is cut to 12 or 13, that will still be true. For all sports including wrestling the starting spot is earned, regardless of number of weight classes.
 
 


Why not... up to 125, 126-150, 150-175, 175-200 and 201-unlimited? That would be same opportunity as Basketball and very few FFts!!!   Starting 5 and very little Weight cutting as compared to 14 weight classes.

I’ll choose 14 classes over that!


Not sure if you are joking or not... LOL.  While I don't watch free/greco wrestling much at all, but I think 6 weights for the Olympics isn't enough.  But 14 would be too many.  It's certainly a delicate balance.  One that's almost always based on demand.


I was joking... I always error on the side of more participants and opportunities in HS sports. I hate the fact that there are so many FFs but I would hate wrestlers not having opportunities even more!
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 6:30am
Please define "having opportunities" . By virtue of participation(being a participant) does that not bestow or imply opportunity?  Does not the very act of participating create the circumstances that make it possible to do something-i.e. opportunity? Opportunity is not a synonym for increasing the number of starting positions in any given sport. Many years ago, any number of high school teams had  70 or even 90 participants, I don't recall laments to increase opportunities by increasing the number of positions on offense or defense. By all means let's have a discussion, but let's also avoid emotionally charged terms .

Edited by ancienthatteroldram - Jun 07 2019 at 6:33am
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opportunity noun
op·​por·​tu·​ni·​ty | \ ˌä-pər-ˈtü-nə-tē , -ˈtyü-\
plural opportunities
Definition of opportunity
1 : a favorable juncture of circumstances
the halt provided an opportunity for rest and refreshment
2 : a good chance for advancement or progress

So my definition of opportunity would be, with work and dedication having - a good chance to advance or progress - into a starting varsity spot, over ones HS career, for the bulk of the wrestlers on the team.
Now knowing that not all wrestlers were created equal by God or have the same work ethic... opportunity wouldn’t equal guarantee!

Edited by Mctuna40 - Jun 07 2019 at 7:09am
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote ancienthatteroldram Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 07 2019 at 7:37am
" for the bulk of the wrestlers on the team" - the definition you quoted does not mention or imply the subjective numerical criteria you  impose - i.e. ''''bulk""".  Opportunity is not dependent upon the number it might benefit. Reducing weight classes will not be the death knoll of wrestling. The number of weight classes are not written in stone, and if we find the change detrimental, we can always adjust.
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The reason why I am frustrated by this is what the wrestlers who are sitting behind the starters are saying. Regardless if you like it or not this is the reality of what the better wrestling schools are dealing with by this change. Since this announcement many wrestlers (who are decent wrestlers but happen to attend a good wrestling school) are contemplating wrestling next year as they have very small shot at making the lineup with the reduced weights. With the amount of work that each person has to put in and the limited amount of competition opportunities for JV wrestlers I understand why they are questioning participating next year. So how does that help wrestling? Like I posted earlier, PJP, Harriton, Penn Wood, Upper Marion will still forfeit 4-6 matches every meet, this will not change that. So all this does is limit opportunities for the better programs.


One complaint people are saying is - it will reduce the number of forfeits at meet - yes but it will also reduce the number of great matches as well. Look at OJR vs. Springford last year. What a great match - that saw every bout contested and every bout mattered. That will now be reduced by 2. What about Henderson vs Ruston - now reduced by 2 matches and so on. So we lose out on watching great competition at those types of meets so that Eagan vs CBSouth only has 9 uncontested matches instead of 11. Yeah, you are right, reducing weight classes will make a huge difference at those meets. I am so excited to go watch 9 forfeits instead of 11 - it will make that match so much better. THIS IS A JOKE!
But what do I know
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote 87 grad Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 18 2019 at 10:45am
I heard/ read somewhere that in certain individual tournaments teams were going to be able to have two wrestlers compete in the same weight, is this correct ?  Would this happen when the new weights go into effect or this coming season ?  This sounds like a good thing so hopefully it's true.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: Jun 19 2019 at 9:14pm
Originally posted by 87 grad 87 grad wrote:

I heard/ read somewhere that in certain individual tournaments teams were going to be able to have two wrestlers compete in the same weight, is this correct ?  Would this happen when the new weights go into effect or this coming season ?  This sounds like a good thing so hopefully it's true.

That is correct.

Starting in 2019-20, a varsity team may enter 2 wrestlers per weight class in regular season individual tournaments that have 9 or more teams, at the discretion of the tournament director. 
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