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Article on possible weight changes

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    Posted: May 21 2019 at 4:54pm
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Dodfan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 5:13pm
I like going to 12 weight classes. I think it's necessary.  The problem I have is going from 106 to 108. You have too many undersized guys at 106. It probably gets worse at 108. I would like to see the first two weight classes go back to 103 and 112.
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MTLeister View Drop Down
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 6:37pm
Originally posted by Dodfan Dodfan wrote:

I like going to 12 weight classes. I think it's necessary.  The problem I have is going from 106 to 108. You have too many undersized guys at 106. It probably gets worse at 108. I would like to see the first two weight classes go back to 103 and 112.

That is certainly a discussion about keeping a low first weight.  Unfortunately the data from weigh-ins over the last several years (according to what research by some have found) suggest there aren't as many of those 100-103 pound kids as you'd think.  Granted the weigh-ins are done based on the weights of the past so if the lowest weight is 106, most will probably try to get as close to that as possible...so that data might be slightly skewed.

From the data I collected and researched, 92.4% of all dual meets this past season involving at least 1 PA HS team had at least 1 forfeit.  That number has been in the low 90s for the last 5 seasons.  The number that surprised me was 27.9% of all those duals has 7 (yes, SEVEN) or more forfeits.  Five years ago that number was 17%.  Statewide last season, 51.7% of all 106 pound bouts in duals were a forfeit (it was 39.9% in D1 and a whopping 65.4% in D7).  The next closest weight was 113 with 44.3% statewide.

Personally I like cutting back to 12 weights for now.  If in 5-10 years participation jumps back up, then go to 13.  But with so many dual meets having a bunch of forfeits, something has to be done.

We'll see how it all plays out.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote lbdoinit Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 6:37pm
Am I counting 13? I thought they were considering 12.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 8:37pm
Originally posted by lbdoinit lbdoinit wrote:

Am I counting 13? I thought they were considering 12.

Oh good catch.

The article lists:
108, 115, 122, 128, 134, 140, 146, 152, 160, 172, 185, 215, 285

I heard the proposal would be:
110, 118, 125, 132, 138, 145, 152, 160, 170, 190, 215, 285
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote dicemen99 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 21 2019 at 10:22pm
Two proposals being considered tomorrow. One with 13, one with 12.


https://tribhssn.triblive.com/piaa-board-to-consider-reducing-number-of-weight-classes-for-wrestling/
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote TheDuke Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 9:47am
I think reducing the number of weights in dual meets is fine, but for post season tournaments there should be 14 weights available.  The issue is with dual meets not having full line ups, not tournaments having empty brackets. 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Morbit1984 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 10:44am
looks like it is going to be 12 and PIAA said regardless what they do nationally PIAA will adopt the 12 classes.. this is a great move
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castelli3017 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 12:26pm
Not a fan! Especially with the large weight gaps up top. Kids are getting larger it seems so why take a class out from the upper weights? Changing the minimum weight class to 108  or 110 will make no difference in the number of forfeits  at the two lightest weights in my opinion
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote castelli3017 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 12:29pm
I like the distribution of weights better in the 13 class proposal plus it lowers the odds of tie matches and the dreaded tie-breaking criteria
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Berwyn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 12:39pm
I would be up for doing 10 weight classes taking out 110 & 215. It would cut the blubber of time wasted consternating on how to fill weight classes.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 1:10pm
This change will hurt the stronger programs with numbers of 35 - 40 plus wrestlers, kids will go to another sport that is easier (which is all other HS sports) that  they have a better chance to be a varsity starter, especially if you are in the 120 - 170 weight classes. I am also not sure how it will positively affect the weaker programs, instead of 7-8 FFT there will be possibly 5-6 FFT what's the difference?
Less weight classes less opportunities to wrestle varsity there will be less wrestlers, hope they go with 13 weight classes
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote monkeyBoy Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 2:09pm
I sort of understand the less weights equals less opportunities argument but if those opportunities aren't being taken right now, are you losing anything if you reduce the number of weights?  The forfeit problem is growing, and the easiest solution is to cut weights.  If/when participation grows like it did 20 years ago, add weights back in.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote JPHWT14 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 22 2019 at 5:30pm
I think going to 12 weights is better for all high school programs. It helps eliminate forfeits for the smaller programs and it is also a good thing for bigger and better programs. I think it creates a better lineup from more competition in the room and prepares high school kids for a college lineup and our goal as high school coaches are to get high school kids to a college lineup if that’s their goal.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (1) Thanks(1)   Quote PintoWin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2019 at 8:24am

So the most talented / deepest wrestling state in the country is eliminating two weight classes from varsity participation, how can this be good for HS wrestling. This is plain and simple the PIAA wimping out because the weaker programs cant get kids out for the sport and its hard work getting kids to participate in any sport today let alone wrestling. 

Whats next 8 on 8 football
 
This only hurts the strong programs and eliminates an opportunity from a kid who most likely started wrestling at 5 or 6, there are already plenty of battles in a room with 40 plus kids for a varsity spot so don't tell me its going to make them better because there are less spots that's BS. This change also in know way helps the weaker programs who are struggling to get more kids out for the sport, does anyone really care if there are 5 FFT vs 7 ? Do teams really want to win matches because they have less FFT ? If so those teams need new leadership
The PIAA should focus on what the stronger programs are doing to get numbers out and having success, take Reynolds for example they have a graduating class of about 150 kids per year and I guessing about 60% are boys and they on average the last 6 years have had roster size of 29 wrestlers plus they are crazy good year in and out. That program is putting in the work, because its important to them, there not wining about having a small school there doing all the right stuff like
 
1. There wrestling coaches coach other sports / talking to kids and their parents about the benefits of wresting at a young age
2. going into the elementary school or schools and talking to the kids about wrestling and its benefits
3. Having fund raisers for your program so you can send kids to camps / tournaments at all levels
4. HS coaches sending your Varsity wrestlers to youth practices to help out with  the little guys
5. Have your wrestling program get together over the summer / spike ball tournament / go to a water park / something fun
6. HS / MS coaches should be a regular presence at youth practices get to know the kids early they will stick with it if your there with them at the beginning
7. Coaches at all levels actually talk to the kids about stuff other than wrestling / make it fun
8. HS coaches who are struggling getting numbers or not having the success they would like should seek out help from coaches that have a healthy program, most will give you some great ideas
 
Its not easy to get kids out for the sport its hard work and its not just one year of hard work its about leadership of your program year in and as I have said to many kids over the years to be great at anything wrestling / playing the piano / academics what ever it has to BE THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IN YOUR LIFE at that time in your life. Real easy to say hard to do
 
The PIAA should put a group together of coaches / past participants business folks to go out an help programs that are struggling in all sports not just wrestling instead of cutting opportunities but that would take hard work and based upon this decision we obviously have the wrong folks in place to govern sports in PA. 
 
This decision is another nail in the coffin of the one sport that teaches life lessons and is a classic decision of placating to a society of people who don't want to put the work in to have success but get the same results as the people that do. I think I will send a participation trophy to everyone at the PIAA for there efforts
 
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote MTLeister Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2019 at 9:19am
Just to be clear regarding all the forfeits...this isn't a PA-only problem, it's a national problem.

I have to check but I think my research showed that over the last few years PA was actually averaging more forfeits in duals than the national average (as I mentioned above, D1 was lower than the state average).  I do want to split up that research by AA vs AAA but when I last did some quick research on that... it didn't seem to matter.  It wasn't like 80% of the forfeits were coming from AA schools.

Basically the PIAA is just going to ask the NFHS (at their next meeting in June/July) to reduce the number of weight classes and if they don't do that then the PIAA will ask to reduce weights in a pilot program.  From what I have read it's pretty likely that the NFHS will be reducing weights.  I could see it being a bigger problem if PA goes its own way on weights.

I've seen some interesting other ideas out there for what to do... including 2 sets of weights, one for duals and one for tournaments.  Anyone like that idea?
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote cbal24 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2019 at 1:08pm
I'm wondering if the weight class reduction will end up saving some programs.  I'm sure there are ADs out there considering whether or not they should keep wrestling due to lack of interest.  This move could actually save some teams, especially in the smaller schools.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote Monsoon Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2019 at 2:20pm
If you're really interested in saving wrestling this has to be considered a good thing. The big schools with full rosters will stay that way, this won't hurt them. They may lose some kids that move to another school for a spot but that will help those schools fill their roster. The smaller schools with smaller rosters will have an easier time filling the weight classes which will result in fewer forfeits. Maybe in time it goes back to 14 ( I doubt it) but this looks to be a good move IMO.
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote seanod Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2019 at 2:56pm
Pin the win is on the money. Stop with all the other llogic,excuses or ideas to ireduce ffts
First the new weight classes where going to make it better 7 yrs ago. Didn’t happen
Then the 2 piece uniforms instead of singlets , didn’t happen
Now just elimate weights. End keep the large ones.because kids are bigger. They maybe bigger physically then kids in the past but in general population there hearts are smaller   More easier sport options out there then 20 yrs ago

If you work hard on your program from youth up. you will field a full competitive team.   These good programs aren’t good year in and year out by luck. Their wrestling communities worked hard for them.   Now you want to penilize them for it

Maybe instead of AA or AAA. Divisions   Go with division A. With 14 weight classes and division B with 10 weight classes. Schools choice

I bet little old    Reynolds Choices division A. And some school with 1000 kids pick B.
Its the same principle of coaching a wrestler. Your results are based on the effort you put into it
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Post Options Post Options   Thanks (0) Thanks(0)   Quote maxtan86 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: May 23 2019 at 3:15pm
This won't help increase numbers, but it will clean up dual meets a bit.
Hopefully it doesn't hurt numbers as well.
I hope they keep it at 14. No harm no foul.
Max Tanenbaum
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max.tanenbaum@belmontcharternetwork.org
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